Maybe, but China continued to occasionally undergo widespread disorder from time to time, and those ultimately resulted in very gradual emigrations to Southeast Asia, which only totaled a few million over a millennia or so. In order for exiles to flee all the way to the Americas, China would have to undergo extreme disorder, specifically involving severe fragmentation at a level not seen since the Spring and Autumn and Warring States Periods (10+ entities competed over four centuries, and the country had remained divided from 771-221 BC) after the Song or so, given that maritime travel continued to be limited along rivers until then. This theoretical period of disorder becomes extremely unlikely after the Han (206 BC-220 AD), and virtually impossible after the Tang (618-907), due to gradual entrenchment of Chinese ideology (Tianxia, or "All Under Heaven").
AHC: Mississippi River valley supports China-sized civilisation
- Thread starter mlp
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Maybe, but China continued to occasionally undergo widespread disorder from time to time, and those ultimately resulted in very gradual emigrations to Southeast Asia, which only totaled a few million over a millennia or so. In order for exiles to flee all the way to the Americas, China would have to undergo extreme disorder, specifically involving severe fragmentation at a level not seen since the Spring and Autumn and Warring States Periods (10+ entities competed over four centuries, and the country had remained divided from 771-221 BC) after the Song or so, given that maritime travel continued to be limited along rivers until then. This theoretical period of disorder becomes extremely unlikely after the Han (206 BC-220 AD), and virtually impossible after the Tang (618-907), due to gradual entrenchment of Chinese ideology (Tianxia, or "All Under Heaven").
I was thinking of an Aleutian/Alaskan route. They stay close to land and finally stop at the latitude of the Columbia River. But as it sounds, a group small enough to have the provisions to make such a trip probably would have little ability to spread agriculture.
Maybe we can change gears with produce from China and do some good. Suppose a packet barge of produce, seed and goods escapes from a Chinese port and makes it across the ocean as did Japanese earthquake debris in recent years. Suppose the shipment has illustrations and tools that the Native Americans can utilize and plant the Asian crops. American populations grow with the new food crops and expand over the continental divide. You would not get the livestock or craftsmanship, but you could make a difference in the American food supply. Eventually, the crops could spread into the Mississippi valley. How much could they expand the American population? As for people, animals and craftsmanship, the only true pre-Columbian option we know of is the Vikings.
While there is circumstantial evidence for ancient one-way crossings from Europe or Africa, none made a lasting impact on native American culture. There are stone carvings in South America that show faces so racially African that we think humans survived a crossing. If so, what if crops and livestock were on that ship?
The OP asks if it is possible for North America (US-Canada), population 2 million in 1500, to support the population of China, 103 million at the time.
Consensus is that the natives of the Mississippi valley would need well-established Old World agriculture, livestock and craftsmanship, from either Europe or China. While a tenth century Chinese colony on the west coast would likely do the trick, there is no credible to bring the Chinese to the New World at that time.
The next alternatives are the Viking expeditions of the eleventh century. In OTL, they failed to leave any significant European technology or agriculture in North America. Did the Vikings have interaction with the English? The Norman Invasion happened in the eleventh century. What might it take for farmers in England to seek refuge in a new land, hitching rides with the Norsemen? It may be a long shot, but it seems like a credible way to put a colony in North America.
Consensus is that the natives of the Mississippi valley would need well-established Old World agriculture, livestock and craftsmanship, from either Europe or China. While a tenth century Chinese colony on the west coast would likely do the trick, there is no credible to bring the Chinese to the New World at that time.
The next alternatives are the Viking expeditions of the eleventh century. In OTL, they failed to leave any significant European technology or agriculture in North America. Did the Vikings have interaction with the English? The Norman Invasion happened in the eleventh century. What might it take for farmers in England to seek refuge in a new land, hitching rides with the Norsemen? It may be a long shot, but it seems like a credible way to put a colony in North America.
I guess the best way would be to keep Danish kings in power in England longer. Perhaps Harthacnut isn't poisoned and reigns longer alongside Edward the Confessor.
WRT the livestock issue, wasn't there a species of horse in North America until early humans hunted them to extinction? If so, would it possible to butterfly this away so that there are still horses around for the Mississippians to domesticate?
As for the crops, maybe have a Chinese or European ship get blown across the ocean and wrecked on the coast of America. The crew are all dead, but when the locals come and investigate, they discover these bags full of strange seeds...
As for the crops, maybe have a Chinese or European ship get blown across the ocean and wrecked on the coast of America. The crew are all dead, but when the locals come and investigate, they discover these bags full of strange seeds...
...And only when half of the villagers are suddenly dying do they realise what kind of shit they stepped on!
Were China or Japan to introduce agriculture to the west coast, it would have trouble spreading away from major river systems let alone the Sierras/Cascades. With the exception of wheat and barley, the East Asian crop package requires summer rainfall. Agriculture would be confined to large rivers with year-round flow like the Sacramento or Columbia at least until a decent irrigation system is built. Even then, so much of the crop package requires a lot of water that it wouldn't be very suitable for the interior states.
Several Latin American countries are among the top horse meat producing countries, including Mexico, Chile, and Brazil, so even they get in on the act.
Given that in 1806, Lewis & Clark made it from Portland to St. Louis in six months, the movement of crops and animals from the west coast to the mid-Mississippi valley is not unimaginable. The problem is getting the Asians across the Pacific with pre-Columbian maritime technology, when the sailors do not know what lies to the east.
Saphroneth
Banned
As I recall, it was on the way there (had a long way to go, but there were certainly cities).
The only problem was... the plagues. The same thing which obliterated the OTL population of the Americas, which pre-contact may have been as high as a hundred million (that's the high bar, but tens of millions is pretty much certain).
Any civilization would be near-obliterated by multiple successive high fatality waves of disease, I think...
The only problem was... the plagues. The same thing which obliterated the OTL population of the Americas, which pre-contact may have been as high as a hundred million (that's the high bar, but tens of millions is pretty much certain).
Any civilization would be near-obliterated by multiple successive high fatality waves of disease, I think...
What if the complete Mexican agriculture package was exported to the Mississippi earlier? Domesticated like the turkey and moscuvey duck never made it that far north in pre-Columbian times. Imagine if they had cotton rotating with peanut, chinampa farms. Maybe South American style raised fields and terrace agriculture. Further cultivation of sunflowers and sunchokes. So in effect you have multiple Mexicos on the Mississippi, then the Vikings bring horses, sheep, pigs, barley, and iron working. You might get pretty close to a China level population.
What about this?
China has no reason to go all the way as they have a playground the size of Asia. Just like in Europe it wasn't Germany or France being the first explorer. Exploration is a huge gambit, when you have nothing to lose (or a lot to gain).So, rather than China, why not a Korean of Annamite kingdom? Pressured by China, squeezed between them and India, they want new opportunities and decide, well, whatever, let's just try and see what's on the other side, let's find a new commercial route that isn't completely dominated by the Chinese and the Muslims.
They end up in America after realising that, yeah, this ocean is a tad bigger than expected. A few wash ashore, meet a local tribe and bring their disease on the table. After a few centuries, immunity has built among the local population, despite some big setbacks. Pushed by the epidemics, the Central Americans Empire drift northward and settle again in the Mississipi valley where they start again.
Fast forward a couple hundred years. The Spanish arrive in Central America and discover a land basically abandoned but full of big cities and impressive buildings, striking fear in their hearts. They settle there for a while but in lesser numbers (gold is harder to find.) After a while they discover the new point of civilisation in the North and start to trade with them. The trade makes the Mississipi population rich, especially by the addition of European farming techniques. Since there is no Colombus exchange (or a far lesser one), the social structures can stay in place and the population booms.
Ok that was a try, I'm not that well acquainted with American history so feel entirely free to call ASB on this
China has no reason to go all the way as they have a playground the size of Asia. Just like in Europe it wasn't Germany or France being the first explorer. Exploration is a huge gambit, when you have nothing to lose (or a lot to gain).So, rather than China, why not a Korean of Annamite kingdom? Pressured by China, squeezed between them and India, they want new opportunities and decide, well, whatever, let's just try and see what's on the other side, let's find a new commercial route that isn't completely dominated by the Chinese and the Muslims.
They end up in America after realising that, yeah, this ocean is a tad bigger than expected. A few wash ashore, meet a local tribe and bring their disease on the table. After a few centuries, immunity has built among the local population, despite some big setbacks. Pushed by the epidemics, the Central Americans Empire drift northward and settle again in the Mississipi valley where they start again.
Fast forward a couple hundred years. The Spanish arrive in Central America and discover a land basically abandoned but full of big cities and impressive buildings, striking fear in their hearts. They settle there for a while but in lesser numbers (gold is harder to find.) After a while they discover the new point of civilisation in the North and start to trade with them. The trade makes the Mississipi population rich, especially by the addition of European farming techniques. Since there is no Colombus exchange (or a far lesser one), the social structures can stay in place and the population booms.
Ok that was a try, I'm not that well acquainted with American history so feel entirely free to call ASB on this
JamesG
Donor
While the OP doesn't state that it has to be an indigenous high density society, I'll stick with the theme that has developed.
IIRC one of the primary reasons for old world endemic disease was long term high (urban) population density. If, unlike OTL, there's now a society with the highest population density in the world in the Mississippi River valley, then rather than wiping out the new world natives, the plague scale epidemics will probably go both ways. Butterflies abound.
IIRC one of the primary reasons for old world endemic disease was long term high (urban) population density. If, unlike OTL, there's now a society with the highest population density in the world in the Mississippi River valley, then rather than wiping out the new world natives, the plague scale epidemics will probably go both ways. Butterflies abound.
The idea was a population density as high as that in China. Louisiana becomes Shanghai, etc.
This would be an interesting TL, I'd say - a China vs. Mississippi Civilisation TTL, the two strongest civilisations on earth.
<<<<<<<< This nailed it. Get the three sisters north a few centuries earlier. Not impossible. Somewhat difficult, as the First Nations were A+ agriculturalists, but shitty sailors. Get the crop package that made the Yucatan and the Andes north to more temperate climates, and the state size could be massive. Because no, no, no - a huge civilization rising from "those" indigenous people is far from ASB.... far from it.
Saphroneth
Banned
They weren't terrible sailors - IIRC the first encounter with the Maya was one of their ships encountering a Spanish one, though I'd have to re-read 1491 to be sure of the details.