AHC: Make the Holy Roman Empire stable.

[NotAMyth]

What we call "the Holy Roman Empire" was the combination of three of the successor states of Charlemagne's empire, Germany, Italy, and Burgundy (Burgundy-Provence or southern Burgundy). The situation with Burgundy was really complicated and it lost all its territory by the middle of the fourteenth century, so it was Germany and Italy that was important. And medieval Germany worked as well or better as any other medieval kingdom. It had common institutions, defending itself from external enemies and expanded its territory, and internal conflicts were the sort of dynastic conflicts that every kingdom experienced. It had post-Reformation religious wars, including a really bad one after 1618, but so did everyone else. Germany only ran into problems when Friedrich II of Prussia started undermining it.

I agree with all of this, but I'd say that it was the 30 years war which destroyed much of the idea of a unified HRE.
Any state is defined and bound by it's common institutions, and HRE's institutions had suffered devastating damage by the time of the peace of Westphalia.
For instance, the Imperial Diet and the Electoral College began to be treated like we would treat General Assembly and the Security Council, instead of internal institutions where legally-binding policy would be made. The emperor, instead of being the head of the state, became more like Macedonia as the hegemon of the Hellenic League, or USA in the NATO.

The challenge, with a POD between the 800s to 1800s, have the Holy Roman Empire actually work. Make it the superpower of the continent, a centralized state, under one leadership, and the the Title of Holy Roman Emperor be powerful and prestigious, making it a worthy successor to the Roman Empire.

I'd say of the 4 requirements you have put down, it can be argued that 3 were already true.
The one which could be different is the second one, but PoD would have to be pre wars of religion. No way any kind of centralization, built on the premise of a shared cultural heritage, survives 'Cuius regio, eius religio'.
I guess Ottokar II of Bohemia getting elected emperor seems a fair PoD. Habsburgs had to be way more diplomatic and respect the privileges of everyone to undertake any kind of centralization, especially given the way they ascended the imperial throne. They did very well in providing stability, but in the long run this could not convert to centralization.

 

[Socrates]

If an empire can be unraveling but hold on for 700 years it’s doing something right.

That's just because of its inherited legitimacy from before that (both of itself and the original Empire).

 

[M79]

*Making the Mongols a bigger, more direct threat would give them common cause (and common cause with the Muslims!)

*Keep Otto III alive past age 20, or even better him and his dad Otto II alive past age 38. Especially if Otto II completes his conquest of Southern Italy and can unite the polity if only on paper.

*Have the Electors become the basis for an Imperial Council with early Parliament of Lords with every noble of a certain level (i.e. Count or higher) represented.

*Have Henry IV overcome the political maneuvering of Gregory VII to establish Imperial supremacy over Papal authority, perhaps ending at least a destructive half-century of internacine civil warfare. This also becomes tricky given the adept near-future Pope Innocent III though Henry IV is not to be taken lightly.

 

[phx1138]

Going a bit OT: what happens to Europe if the HRE does survive?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Some 18th century PODs:
Joseph I/Karl VI have a son: Prussian aggrandizement is nearly directly tied to the Habsburg "wane". Friedrich the Great's moved post-Aix-la-Chapelle are diplomatic leverings through allies/family members (using Habsburg type moves ergo clearly pointing to the Hohenzollerns as Habsburg successors).

Let Maria Theresia be less pigheaded and agree to an imperial coronation (she refused OTL since she already had her titles as Queen of Hungary/Bohemia confirmed). This did a massive damage to the perceptions of the Habsburgs in Germany.

Let François Étienne win-out in the argument of bringing Prussia back "into the fold". Maria Theresia refused to consent to this so long as Fritz held Silesia. She allied with France instead because she didn't trust England and Holland (who François was pushing to ally with FWIG)

Joseph II has a son/heir. This doesn't sound big, but the biggest opponents to his reforms were backed by his siblings (Maria Christine in Belgium, Ferdinand in Lombardy, Maximilian in Hungary and Leopold II in the rest of Italy) because they didn't want to see their own lessened.

 

[Wendell]

Can you explain this one?

What I said in the post before the one who you quoted (as they are the most likely way for getting that outcome)

Keeping either of em alive butterflies the Habsburgs getting Spain, so all their focus would be on the HRE. Given the amount of land and influence they have it won't be hard to centralize the HRE, maybe even make it hereditary.

My proposals butterfly Hapsburg inheritance of, and preoccupation with, Spain. These leaves the dynasty poorer, out of some wars, and weaker, thereby having them put more focus on Central Europe and making things work with the various electors, dukes, et cetera.

 

[BIZANTINUL]

My proposals butterfly Hapsburg inheritance of, and preoccupation with, Spain. These leaves the dynasty poorer, out of some wars, and weaker, thereby having them put more focus on Central Europe and making things work with the various electors, dukes, et cetera.

It is too late by then as the different principalities have stabilised and have become coherent states with only nominal ties to the emperor. Besides them, a large array of free cities and bishoprics complicated greatly the political landscape and there was intermitent outside interference. I too believe that in order to have a viable HRE you need to get back in time to the thirteen century.

If the Habsburgs have no extensive burgundian and spanish inheritance, they will be a little fish in the huge pond of the HRE taking also into consideration that the archduchy of Austria is not the wealthiest or the most centralised territory.

 

[isabella]

My proposals butterfly Hapsburg inheritance of, and preoccupation with, Spain. These leaves the dynasty poorer, out of some wars, and weaker, thereby having them put more focus on Central Europe and making things work with the various electors, dukes, et cetera.

It is too late by then as the different principalities have stabilised and have become coherent states with only nominal ties to the emperor. Besides them, a large array of free cities and bishoprics complicated greatly the political landscape and there was intermitent outside interference. I too believe that in order to have a viable HRE you need to get back in time to the thirteen centura.

If the Habsburgs have no extensive burgundian and spanish inheritance, they will be a little fish in the huge pond of the HRE taking also into consideration that the archduchy of Austria is not the wealthiest or the most centralised territory.

The Habsburg here will keep the Burgundian inheritance (Charles V is the eldest son of Philip) and that was one of the richest lands of Europe, if not the richest (Spain and Portugal’s biggest revenues came from outside Europe). Maximilian had started reforms who would likely bring to reinforce the power of the Emperor over the Empire if he had a little more time and most important, a successor who will follow in his footsteps, without being distracted. A Charles of Burgundy who has no Spain will be exactly that

 

[Jonathan1997]

The Pope's where a big reason what no dynasty could dominate and reform the holy Roman Empire but what killed it permanently was the reformation and nationalism

 

[BIZANTINUL]

The Habsburg here will keep the Burgundian inheritance (Charles V is the eldest son of Philip) and that was one of the richest lands of Europe, if not the richest (Spain and Portugal’s biggest revenues came from outside Europe). Maximilian had started reforms who would likely bring to reinforce the power of the Emperor over the Empire if he had a little more time and most important, a successor who will follow in his footsteps, without being distracted. A Charles of Burgundy who has no Spain will be exactly that

Ok, but still it does not solve the fact that HRE is now a body with many heads. Sure Carol V tried to pass reforms which, if succesfull, could have led to a European Union type of structure (common army, common currency, common christian denomination in their case etc.) with distinct states inside but it is a matter of time that a third power will oppose him (France, Denmark, Sweden) in the name of the rights of the protestants or the liberty of Germany.

Fundamentally there were diverging interests both internally and externally between different parts of the Empire (who in Germany or Bohemia was eager to fight the Turks?)

 

[isabella]

Ok, but still it does not solve the fact that HRE is now a body with many heads. Sure Carol V tried to pass reforms which, if succesfull, could have led to a European Union type of structure (common army, common currency, common christian denomination in their case etc.) with distinct states inside but it is a matter of time that a third power will oppose him (France, Denmark, Sweden) in the name of the rights of the protestants or the liberty of Germany.

Fundamentally there were diverging interests both internally and externally between different parts of the Empire (who in Germany or Bohemia was eager to fight the Turks?)

What protestants? Luther has not yet started the Reformation and with an Emperor present and concentrated things will NOT go as OTL, and right now France, Denmark and Sweden have other internal troubles of their own

 

[GameBawesome]

Just wanted to throw this in, because I’m writing a timeline about this.

Would it help if the Habsburg embraced the Reformation, and became Protestants, or start their own Anglicism-style church?

 

[Faeelin]

One of the problems with saying Westphalia doomed the Empire is that the Empire actually joined the Nine Years War and raised troops for it!

 

[Faeelin]

Fundamentally there were diverging interests both internally and externally between different parts of the Empire (who in Germany or Bohemia was eager to fight the Turks?)

The Imperial Diet raised funds for the Turkish wars, so....

 

[isabella]

Just wanted to throw this in, because I’m writing a timeline about this.

Would it help if the Habsburg embraced the Reformation, and became Protestants, or start their own Anglicism-style church?

No need for that. A decisive intervention of the Emperor can stop the evolution of the Protestantism in the cradle, keeping it as a simple movenen who asked for reforms INSIDE the Catholic Church and nothing more.

 

[NotAMyth]

One of the problems with saying Westphalia doomed the Empire is that the Empire actually joined the Nine Years War and raised troops for it!

How does the ability to raise troops or even declare war equal to statehood? Even if troops from all over Germany joined the "Imperial army" the fact of the matter is pre-modern militaries could have extremely diverse origins for it's soldiers. You could have Italians, Scots and Irish fighting for the French and the Imperials.

And after looking it up a bit, I think the PoD definitely has to be Fredrick II Hohenstaufen and the Regalia rights he relinquished as part of the Confoederatio cum principibus ecclesiasticis and Statutum in favorem principum. These concessions gave away the Emperor's exclusive right to control tariffs, minting of coins and fortification. They guaranteed imperial support for Bishops and the Nobles establishing their own courts and backing whatever judgements they may pass. Not to mention Bohemia was allowed all-but untouchable, independent power within the HRE by the Golden Bull of Sicily.

It is ironical especially considering how much of a centralizing force he was within the Kingdom of Sicily. Makes me think that if he didn't have Sicily to obsess over, he might have refrained from basically allowing the Germans to do whatever they wanted to do.

Infact Statutum in favorem principum was the first time the German dukes were called domini terræ, owners of their lands.

 

[Faeelin]

How does the ability to raise troops or even declare war equal to statehood? Even if troops from all over Germany joined the "Imperial army" the fact of the matter is pre-modern militaries could have extremely diverse origins for it's soldiers. You could have Italians, Scots and Irish fighting for the French and the Imperials.

I tend to consider the ability to raise funds and deploy troops to resist foreign aggression a sign of statehood. YMMV.

 

[BIZANTINUL]

What protestants? Luther has not yet started the Reformation and with an Emperor present and concentrated things will NOT go as OTL, and right now France, Denmark and Sweden have other internal troubles of their own

I am sorry I thought that you were refering to Charles V but I see that you were mentioning his predecesor, Maximilian. I still do think that the core of my arguments stand.
Firstly the emperor will need to confront a Reform movement in the near future and that movement will secede from traditional Catholicism. There will be some princes which will welcome the new religion as it is the perfect opportunity for an încrease of revenue and for a tighter secular control over the church. At best the emperor and Papacy will take some light measures to adress some visible aspects of corruption but they will not budge in matters of dogma. So there will be a religious fracture in the HRE superimposed over the political one.

Secondly, there will be external threats. France was in a decent shape at the beggining of the 16th century, the religious wars were some time in the future. They will certainly be challenging the Hapsburgs because they will feel threatened by a behemoth at their eastern borders. The Turks will join in as they want all of Hungary. In time, other states with investments in HRE (Denmark) will take the mantle of the opposition to the Emperor.

Finally, the individual duchies of Germany or Italy will be little invested in a foreign Policy of the Habsburgs and will be reluctant to join a centralised structure in which they will lose their privileges. If the Emperor tries to use compulsion, France or some other third power will gladly aid the "beleagured" german princes.

 

[isabella]

I am sorry I thought that you were refering to Charles V but I see that you were mentioning his predecesor, Maximilian. I still do think that the core of my arguments stand.
Firstly the emperor will need to confront a Reform movement in the near future and that movement will secede from traditional Catholicism. There will be some princes which will welcome the new religion as it is the perfect opportunity for an încrease of revenue and for a tighter secular control over the church. At best the emperor and Papacy will take some light measures to adress some visible aspects of corruption but they will not budge in matters of dogma. So there will be a religious fracture in the HRE superimposed over the political one.

Secondly, there will be external threats. France was in a decent shape at the beggining of the 16th century, the religious wars were some time in the future. They will certainly be challenging the Hapsburgs because they will feel threatened by a behemoth at their eastern borders. The Turks will join in as they want all of Hungary. In time, other states with investments in HRE (Denmark) will take the mantle of the opposition to the Emperor.

Finally, the individual duchies of Germany or Italy will be little invested in a foreign Policy of the Habsburgs and will be reluctant to join a centralised structure in which they will lose their privileges. If the Emperor tries to use compulsion, France or some other third power will gladly aid the "beleagured" german princes.

Why you are so sure who a Reformation MUST happen? In OTL happened because an absent Emperor ignored the question until was way too late for stopping it. ATL the Emperor will be present and active on reinforcing his power on all the Empire.

 

[BIZANTINUL]

Wby you are so sure who a Reformation MUST happen? In OTL happened because an absent Emperor ignored the question until was way too late for stopping it. ATL the Emperor will be present and active on reinforcing his power on all the Empire.

Because movements divergent from Catholicism were already proliferating in Europe (hussitism in Bohemia) and the princes were becoming more assertive in their relations with a weaker Papacy. It did not help that in that period the Pope was starting to resemble one of the petty dukes of Italy and not the theocratic ruler of western christianity.

I believe that you see the emperor as approaching the status of an absolute ruler which in my perception is not the case: there is a great deal of difference for example between the power that Charles V could exercise in the duchy of Burgundy and Hungary. Sure on paper his power is formidable but in practice he was bound by the legal practices in place in all the different territories of HRE. In some places he had significant authority, in others the estates were so powerful that he was just a figurehead with no real authority.