AHC: Make football a popular sport worldwide.

[Derek Pullem]

You don't necessarily need a lot of equipment to play American football. Look at pictures of football players a century ago, most noticeable in the leather helmets. Equipment is a luxury, something you'd like to have but can't at the moment. And yes, you'll be hurting after you finish your game, but that didn't stop millions of people from playing football before modern equipment was available. Maybe you can have it so all those bruises, bloody noses, etc. make the game appear as a manly test of skills, which to a large degree is OTL hence the hyper-masculine imagery of American football.

And yet Junior High Schoolers have all the gear in todays game from the age of 12-13 - I can't see a standard game of American Football being permitted without the current level of protective gear. Flag football maybe but thats not the same game

Isn't that more of a North American problem than anything else? Although the problem is there isn't a second-tier league, especially since Arena football has declined massively in recent years. Outside of the NFL, you have college football for viewership and popularity, but you can't promote the best college teams like Alabama to the NFL for obvious reasons, although I'd love to see a game between the worst NFL team and the college football national champion (Cleveland Browns vs Alabama, anyone?).

The whole franchise system is effectively driven by the need to guarantee financial success due to the high cost of entry. American Football isn't unique to this (Rugby League, some Rugby Union and a handful of Association Football leagues - although FIFA tend to discourage it) but because of the infrastructure needed to support top level teams it's the highest profile example.

I don't think a franchise system can drive growth easily across the world - association football can develop open leagues operating at very low cost with minimal barriers to entry. If anything the NFL would be highly protective of foreign leagues potentially siphoning off their talent (and revenue opportunities)

 

[Ian_W]

And yet Junior High Schoolers have all the gear in todays game from the age of 12-13 - I can't see a standard game of American Football being permitted without the current level of protective gear. Flag football maybe but thats not the same game

I can absolutely see American Football played without the gear.

As support, here is a video put together by Pete Carroll about how to tackle in American Football. Yeah. Legion of Boom. That Pete Carroll.

Skip forward to 15.29 and you'll see what I think is Union.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I can absolutely see American Football played without the gear.

As support, here is a video put together by Pete Carroll about how to tackle in American Football. Yeah. Legion of Boom. That Pete Carroll.

Then it's not the game we watch today, is it. If you make American Football popular by turning it into a Rugby derivative then whats the point.

 

[Ian_W]

Then it's not the game we watch today, is it. If you make American Football popular by turning it into a Rugby derivative then whats the point.

American football is a rugby derivative.

The innovations are four downs for ten yards, blocking is mostly legal and forward passing is mostly legal.

The armour ... thats an irrelevancy. Likewise, substitutions are also an irrelevancy (Prime Time could have played full time as a receiver, as could Richard Sherman. Likewise, there are a number of middle linebackers who I would give the ball to and tell them 'I need three yards').

 

[Arkenfolm]

And yet Junior High Schoolers have all the gear in todays game from the age of 12-13 - I can't see a standard game of American Football being permitted without the current level of protective gear. Flag football maybe but thats not the same game

But that's not what the thread is about. Spreading football would have to happen at an early date, hence before all the protective gear was invented. Look how early Cuba and Japan took up baseball for instance.

And even nowadays, people play casual games of football in their backyards without much equipment.

There is also a (relative) lack of specialisation - if you can play outfield, you can (in theory) play any position with the same skill set. Only goalies have a real difference in what they do.

It also scales up and down readily - you can play a version from one a side to thirty a side easily, and it's fundamentally the same game.

How much of a deal is that? In the US, 8-man football is often played by small high schools and organised on a regional level, and the sport is played in backyards and other casual settings by even smaller groups of people. And many of the football positions aren't too different from each other, and at the high school level many players switch between positions and can be good at both.

Yes, that's nowhere near as flexible as soccer for the reaons you stated, but the game has a lot of flexibility.

 

[Derek Pullem]

As we all know, football is not so popular worldwide, but how can you make it popular?

American football is a rugby derivative.

The innovations are four downs for ten yards, blocking is mostly legal and forward passing is mostly legal.

The armour ... thats an irrelevancy. Likewise, substitutions are also an irrelevancy (Prime Time could have played full time as a receiver, as could Richard Sherman. Likewise, there are a number of middle linebackers who I would give the ball to and tell them 'I need three yards').

So apart from the game being played with fewer players on the field in body armour (but with enough substitutes to replace the team 4 times over) with a mostly stop-start routine with up to 45 seconds between routines and allowing persons off the ball to be impeded, not to mention the ability to pass the ball forward by hand to players that have located themselves ahead of the passer (so nothing like a forward kick in rugby) - NFL Football is just like rugby?

Gee - that must be why so many rugby players cross over to American Football. Or perhaps they don't.

 

[Ian_W]

Yes, that's nowhere near as flexible as soccer for the reaons you stated, but the game has a lot of flexibility.

Association Football could have unlimited interchange and a substitutes bench of thirty, and American Football could be played by eleven men a side with two injury substitutes, and the games they are would not change.

 

[Ian_W]

So apart from the game being played with fewer players on the field in body armour (but with enough substitutes to replace the team 4 times over) with a mostly stop-start routine with up to 45 seconds between routines and allowing persons off the ball to be impeded, not to mention the ability to pass the ball forward by hand to players that have located themselves ahead of the passer (so nothing like a forward kick in rugby) - NFL Football is just like rugby?

Gee - that must be why so many rugby players cross over to American Football. Or perhaps they don't.

Just like League.

To quote Jack Gibson, 'Same game, different rules'.

You do understand the differences between Union and League, yeah ?

 

[Derek Pullem]

But that's not what the thread is about. Spreading football would have to happen at an early date, hence before all the protective gear was invented. Look how early Cuba and Japan took up baseball for instance.

And even nowadays, people play casual games of football in their backyards without much equipment.

Then you still have to deal with the rule set that allowed so many injuries and deaths in the early years that protective equipment was made mandatory.

 

[Pete U]

American football is a rugby derivative.

The innovations are four downs for ten yards, blocking is mostly legal and forward passing is mostly legal.

The armour ... thats an irrelevancy. Likewise, substitutions are also an irrelevancy (Prime Time could have played full time as a receiver, as could Richard Sherman. Likewise, there are a number of middle linebackers who I would give the ball to and tell them 'I need three yards').

And the restrictions on handling the ball - any player in a rugby match can make a legal pass to any other player on his team.

4/11 of the offence in American Football can usually go a whole season without touching the ball (Guards & Tackles)

Defensive players can easily go whole games without touching the ball.

It has evolved from rugby, yes, but it's a very very different game now.

In all honesty, I think it would be easier to get a version of Rugby popular in the US, rather than exporting their game (in the 1910s some colleges had switched)

 

[Derek Pullem]

Just like League.

To quote Jack Gibson, 'Same game, different rules'.

You do understand the differences between Union and League, yeah ?

I must have missed the stream of Rugby League players crossing over to American Football then?

If Rugby League is the way forward for American Football why isn't that a world game?

 

[Ian_W]

Then you still have to deal with the rule set that allowed so many injuries and deaths in the early years that protective equipment was made mandatory.

So wrong it's not funny.

It was rucks and mauls - or their American cousin, the flying wedge - that created the bodycount that made Teddy Roosvelt go 'No'.

This predated armor in American Football.

And, in any case, the armor makes injuries worse, not better, because incompetent defensive coaches teach tackling with the head not the shoulder (cf Pete Carroll video. Yeah, 2013 Seahawks. That Pete Carrol).

 

[Komnenos002]

An exceedingly poor analogy, besides someone asking me to shoot some hoops with them to me is different than someone asking me to play basketball anyway, shooting hoops typically refers to something alot more casual than a full game of basketball.
Have you by chance ever seen this map?
http://static3.businessinsider.com/...call-it-football-and-which-call-it-soccer.jpg
Notice that the only major English speaking country that doesn't call it soccer is Britian? That would be because the motherland has been corrupted by mainland europe and the rest of us haven't been.

I don't really see the need to so stridently argue that the vast majority of the world is incorrect in the language they use, which isn't exactly how language works, but this map isn't entirely correct.

While soccer is used in NZ, I would say football is used more often and is the official name of the sport here as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football

 

[Ian_W]

And the restrictions on handling the ball - any player in a rugby match can make a legal pass to any other player on his team.

So. Lets deal with a traditional tight five.

How often do any of them pass the ball, and note that a pick and drive does not count as a pass.

 

[Ian_W]

I must have missed the stream of Rugby League players crossing over to American Football then?

If Rugby League is the way forward for American Football why isn't that a world game?

Same reason rugby union is a very poor third cousin in England - because societies made their choices as to football before the Great War.

Union won in New Zealand, it's corpse shambled along for a century in Australia, League won in NSW and Queensland but not in SA, WA or Victoria, American football won in the US, and association football won in the UK and the rest of the world.

 

[Pete U]

So. Lets deal with a traditional tight five.

How often do any of them pass the ball, and note that a pick and drive does not count as a pass.

The point is they can, and it does happen, in most games. I haven't sat and counted how many times.

 

[Ian_W]

The point is they can, and it does happen. I haven't sat and counted how many times.

Likewise, all players on an American football field are eligible to either make or catch a lateral pass.

The fact they don't do so is down to coaching, and the fact that most forwards can't remember their boot size unless told (*).

(*) Author may have played winger for Petersham in the Sydney subbies.

 

[Derek Pullem]

So. Lets deal with a traditional tight five.

How often do any of them pass the ball, and note that a pick and drive does not count as a pass.

Have you watched a Union game recently?

Likewise, all players on an American football field are eligible to either make or catch a lateral pass.

The fact they don't do so is down to coaching, and the fact that most forwards can't remember their boot size unless told (*).

(*) Author may have played winger for Petersham in the Sydney subbies.

Must have been some time ago. Any forward who could not take his place in the line nowadays wouldn't last long at the top level. Even the front row.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Then you still have to deal with the rule set that allowed so many injuries and deaths in the early years that protective equipment was made mandatory.

Which has never stopped casual games from using no protection, or the sport in general from using fairly minimal protection until the 50s. Besides, the injuries and bruises make it easy to sell the game as a test of manhood to young men. And if you can get football in several cultures to game the reputation as a "manly game" compared to "less manly" soccer, then I think you'd get American football a lot more popular.

Further, I'd look at countries where baseball is popular, which is a result of American cultural influence in many cases. This includes Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Japan (where there are American football-themed manga). American football could be introduced there, and also could be introduced during WWII in Western Europe although it wouldn't displace association football. And look how popular American football is in Samoa, and in general in the Samoan diaspora--Samoans are disproportionately represented at both college and NFL levels. Look at Marcus Mariota, Troy Polamalu, etc.

 

[Ian_W]

Have you watched a Union game recently?

Must have been some time ago. Any forward who could not take his place in the line nowadays wouldn't last long at the top level. Even the front row.

'Traditional' is a word you might think about.

But, again, you're showing the sort of wide angled view that actually understands the development of several sorts of football - and therefore the challenges rugby union may run into in the future - that makes me say 'You know, I think you could run the NSWRU to the standard by which they have been run in the past'.