AHC large domestic animals in Americas?

[Kingpoleon]

One final idea:
In 1332, the Incans suffer the loss of a minor settlement of almost 80 people due to a large pack of over 250 wolves. This inspires them to begin further domesticating wolves, first breeding based on loyalty and then size. By 1350, the sixth generation of wolves is born and some forty weigh over 180 lbs. and stand at 4' 0" tall or a little taller. The breeds continue to mix until the wolf in 1400 weighs 250 lbs., stands at 5' 2" on average and are often ridden into battle.
In 1492, the majority of wolves are between 5'4" and 5'8". A few small dogs, about 2'9" have become lapdogs for the aristocrats, and the wealthiest may own packs of up to fifty dogs. The Cazatel breed is believed to have originated in Bogata, Colombia. The Azectul variety is from a few Aztec domesticated wolves.
By 1525, when the Spanish sent large numbers of dog across,mother varieties of the dogs were easy to distinguish. The English Bulldogs would later mix with the Incan dogs and become the New English Shepherd.
The Great Dane mixed with the Indian dogs and soon developed into a large breed that gained popularity in Europe as the New German Wolfhound. Until 1973, recognizability of the New German Wolfhound was refused. But when President Thomas Smithson has a pet dog, you better recognize it. After retiring, Thomas helped to produce the New German Shepherd, a dog with 1/8 New English Shepherd blood, 1/8 Irish Wolfhound, 1/4 Grey Wolf and 1/2 Azectul.

 

[Mario]

One final idea:
In 1332, the Incans suffer the loss of a minor settlement of almost 80 people due to a large pack of over 250 wolves. This inspires them to begin further domesticating wolves, first breeding based on loyalty and then size. By 1350, the sixth generation of wolves is born and some forty weigh over 180 lbs. and stand at 4' 0" tall or a little taller. The breeds continue to mix until the wolf in 1400 weighs 250 lbs., stands at 5' 2" on average and are often ridden into battle.
In 1492, the majority of wolves are between 5'4" and 5'8". A few small dogs, about 2'9" have become lapdogs for the aristocrats, and the wealthiest may own packs of up to fifty dogs. The Cazatel breed is believed to have originated in Bogata, Colombia. The Azectul variety is from a few Aztec domesticated wolves.
By 1525, when the Spanish sent large numbers of dog across,mother varieties of the dogs were easy to distinguish. The English Bulldogs would later mix with the Incan dogs and become the New English Shepherd.
The Great Dane mixed with the Indian dogs and soon developed into a large breed that gained popularity in Europe as the New German Wolfhound. Until 1973, recognizability of the New German Wolfhound was refused. But when President Thomas Smithson has a pet dog, you better recognize it. After retiring, Thomas helped to produce the New German Shepherd, a dog with 1/8 New English Shepherd blood, 1/8 Irish Wolfhound, 1/4 Grey Wolf and 1/2 Azectul.

Problem: wolves have never inhabited South America.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Problem: wolves have never inhabited South America.

Wow. Manes wolves, anyone? Also, I personally believe that tales of the grey wolves in the north would result in the purchasing from the Aztecs by the Maya's to the Incans in exchange for maned wolves. Should I mention buying of grey wolves?(also, the red and eastern wolves exist in the Yucatan and northern a Central America)

 

[Mario]

Wow. Manes wolves, anyone? Also, I personally believe that tales of the grey wolves in the north would result in the purchasing from the Aztecs by the Maya's to the Incans in exchange for maned wolves. Should I mention buying of grey wolves?(also, the red and eastern wolves exist in the Yucatan and northern a Central America)

Why this exchange? Maned wolves are very shy animals that avoid the human presence, so they are very difficult to domesticate, and their behaviour is very different to the grey wolf.

Sinceresly, I can't imagine Aztecs or Mayas being interested in maned wolves. Incans never paid attention, so why them?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

One final idea:
In 1332, the Incans suffer the loss of a minor settlement of almost 80 people due to a large pack of over 250 wolves. This inspires them to begin further domesticating wolves, first breeding based on loyalty and then size. By 1350, the sixth generation of wolves is born and some forty weigh over 180 lbs. and stand at 4' 0" tall or a little taller. The breeds continue to mix until the wolf in 1400 weighs 250 lbs., stands at 5' 2" on average and are often ridden into battle.
In 1492, the majority of wolves are between 5'4" and 5'8". A few small dogs, about 2'9" have become lapdogs for the aristocrats, and the wealthiest may own packs of up to fifty dogs. The Cazatel breed is believed to have originated in Bogata, Colombia. The Azectul variety is from a few Aztec domesticated wolves.
By 1525, when the Spanish sent large numbers of dog across,mother varieties of the dogs were easy to distinguish. The English Bulldogs would later mix with the Incan dogs and become the New English Shepherd.
The Great Dane mixed with the Indian dogs and soon developed into a large breed that gained popularity in Europe as the New German Wolfhound. Until 1973, recognizability of the New German Wolfhound was refused. But when President Thomas Smithson has a pet dog, you better recognize it. After retiring, Thomas helped to produce the New German Shepherd, a dog with 1/8 New English Shepherd blood, 1/8 Irish Wolfhound, 1/4 Grey Wolf and 1/2 Azectul.

???
The Inca already had domesticated wolves. They are called dogs. You want to breed dogs larger, fine. But firstly, you don't need wolves, and secondly they're still dogs.

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

One final idea:
In 1332, the Incans suffer the loss of a minor settlement of almost 80 people due to a large pack of over 250 wolves. This inspires them to begin further domesticating wolves, first breeding based on loyalty and then size.

Andean cultures, including the Incas, already had dogs. They even had herding dogs for llamas, the names of which I forgot.


As to the people stating that bison are obstinate, aggressive, and unworkable, I'm rather confused on this matter. First off, wouldn't the Aurochs have been rather aggressive itself? If it was calm and easily caught it probably wouldn't have been domesticated. In fact, depending on what breed you're looking at and the quality thereof, many domestic bulls can still be frighteningly aggressive, some moreso than any bison aggression displays I've seen. Second, this conflicts wildly with European reports of bison back before their near-extinction, calling them extremely naive/docile/stupid and controllable. When searching for an unrelated subject, I even found one that derided Indians for not taking advantage of their tamability. (It's been some time since I read these and a quick Google search for these books has not turned up anything, but they're all readable on Google Books and if someone asks I'll look harder for them)

Plus, you can do this with 'em.

 

[twovultures]

Bison are highly migratory, and combine a certain level of stupidity with aggressiveness, maneuverability, and speed that would put a wild aurochs to shame. Taming bison is possible, but not worth the effort for stone age people. DValdron has a timeline called Land of Ice and Mice which has an interesting view of the Inuits domesticating musk-ox, caribou, ptarmigans, and semi-domesticating other animals like walruses and Stellar's Sea Cows.

Oh hey, is that a signature on the bottom of this post? Perhaps you should click on it...

 

[Mark E.]

Given the way horses adapted to America after the Spanish came over, they could have been introduced earlier by the Vikings or some failed one-way crossing from Europe.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

See also the following. There are LOTS of alternate domestication threads of one sort or another, and lots of 'Indians do better' threads which basically require draft animals of one sort or another.

Pecari rex, Equus regina: American Domesticates 3.0 (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
twovultures

Small Beasts: Or, American Domesticates 2.0 (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
twovultures

The American Stinky Pig: Or, Not ANOTHER American Domesticates TL! (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
twovultures

Lands of Bronze and Fire - An American Domestication Timeline, Take Two (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
Huehuecoyotl

Lands of Bronze and Llamas - A Domestication TL (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6)
Huehuecoyotl

PC|WI: Domestication of American Species (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Mr. BoJangles

Native American animal domestication (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Just plain Craig

Native American domestication of buffalo? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Tetsu

Cool Potential Domestications (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
DValdron

Land of Salmon and Totems 2.0 (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
Malta
(although that's far more about plant domestication)

ITTL (likely localized) semidomestication of elk?
Thesaurus Rex

PC: Native American's Domesticate Buffalo?
Rainbow Sparkle

Even American Natives (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Zorqal

PC/WI: Plains Tribes domesticate the Buffalo
LHB

WI Horse don't die out in North America?
EnglishCanuck

Tame the Bison (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
Malta

How to give the Native Americans more favoreable conditions? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Pando

What held the Natives back? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
Prime Minister

Alternative to the horse ideas?
Prime Minister

Llama cavalry? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
Uruk

An Americas' World? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
jkay

Native American control of the Americas, post 15th-cent.
SuperMonkey

WI: mutual die-off when Americas are discovered (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Somes J

Land of the Horse Lords (North American Megafauna) (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Argo41

AHC How to keep megafauna alive in the Americas? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
theDisciple

No megafauna extinction in the Americas (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
teg

Amerindian Middle Ages (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
Chiropteroid

An american civilization up to par with the eurasian ones.
theDisciple

Reindeer the North American Domesticate
Domoviye

How to advance pre-Columbian America? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Workable Goblin

WI Native Indians were not lactose intolerant?
Evil Tristin

A 'Native American' Wank? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
sansahansan

Mississippi Rice (v2.0) (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
tormsen

Plausability Check: Domesticate Animals and Disease
Domoviye

Horses of Turtle Island Timeline Draft
Domoviye

Alternate Domestic Animals (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
Leistungsfähiger Amerikan

Giving Doug Muir's "Bronze Age New World" Another Look (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6)
Hnau

WI The Horse had never died out in the America (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6)
RazeByFire


Native American Empire (Multi-page thread 1 2)
insight20/20

Horses or Camels survive in America
Foreign Shadow

WI buffaloes could be domesticated
bookmonkey786

Western/American Camel (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Shurik

Bronze age Americans (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
Zor

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Anyway, I think both the wild or the domesticated version of the species would have suffered too much for crossing the Central American jungles, as llamas/guanacos are very restricted to Andean climate. Hot and wet jungles would probably kill them.

Around 8th century AD, hairless dogs appeared in Peru for the first time. They had been present for centuries in Mexico.
Also around 8th century AD, copper metallurgy appeared in Western Mexico. It had been present for centuries in Peru.
Neither copper metallurgy nor hairless dogs appeared in Central American jungles.
Sounds like overseas contact, probably on Mochica ships.

What if the Mochica also carry llamas over Pacific to Western Mexico?

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Bison are highly migratory, and combine a certain level of stupidity with aggressiveness, maneuverability, and speed that would put a wild aurochs to shame. Taming bison is possible, but not worth the effort for stone age people. DValdron has a timeline called Land of Ice and Mice which has an interesting view of the Inuits domesticating musk-ox, caribou, ptarmigans, and semi-domesticating other animals like walruses and Stellar's Sea Cows.

Oh hey, is that a signature on the bottom of this post? Perhaps you should click on it...

I've read both yours and DValdron's timelines! Yours is what convinced me to make an account here and Ice and Mice is what fired up my imagination.

I probably should find those books...they really do make bison seem pretty naive and pseudo-tame. This isn't evidence, but I personally haven't seen aggression from a bison that couldn't have been done worse by bull cattle. On that note, we have pretty much zero record of actual aurochs behavior, so who knows what they were like . It's of my hypothesis that the reason bison were not domesticated was not because they were too much trouble, but because they were already easy to approach, hunt and even redirect in the first place, making captivity unnecessary. There's aggression, sure, but any competent livestock farmer knows how to and has to deal with aggression.

ITTL (likely localized) semidomestication of elk?
Thesaurus Rex

Dang, that reminds me I need to finish researching that. That's a really interesting and frustrating topic that I have to get to the bottom of.

Dammit Benjamin Barton, you're a professional naturalist. You can't just say crazy crap like sled-trained elk and not give any kind of source! When my TARDIS comes in the mail I'm gonna give you a piece of my mind >:[

Around 8th century AD, hairless dogs appeared in Peru for the first time. They had been present for centuries in Mexico.
Also around 8th century AD, copper metallurgy appeared in Western Mexico. It had been present for centuries in Peru.
Neither copper metallurgy nor hairless dogs appeared in Central American jungles.
Sounds like overseas contact, probably on Mochica ships.

What if the Mochica also carry llamas over Pacific to Western Mexico?

You got part of it right; there had been a somewhat indirect trade from Mesoamerica to the Andes for quite some time, and that's how corn got to the Andes and bronze to Mexico.

I don't think it's likely the big states in those regions were aware of each other, but a lot of the trade was done from maritime traders living in present-day Ecuador hauling cargo in coast-hugging sailing rafts called balsas (or at least the Spanish called them balsas, they seem to like calling lots of rafts balsas...). These crafts are still traditionally made to this day, which is kinda cool.

Further reading for balsas [1] [2] [3]

(What are these 'Mochica ships'? Google has failed me.)

 

[Tate the Brewer]

Camelops... Paleolama, Hemiauchenia, one of the 5 species of equids that prowled both North and South America? Hippidion comes to mind for South America, perhaps one of two macrauchenids? There was also a sheep-sized protothere in South America at the time of humans' arrival... Neolicaphrium, I think? There were also two antelocaprids, one of which (Capromeryx) could make a good micro-domesticate, and then what is it... three ovibovines running around North America?


As far as dogs are concerned, South America is rich with different kinds of canids, and had two large species, one of which was definitely social - Canis nehringi and Theriodictis. Finding suitable domesticates in the Americas isn't very hard. I think that our OTL bias gets in the way a lot of the time.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

You got part of it right; there had been a somewhat indirect trade from Mesoamerica to the Andes for quite some time, and that's how corn got to the Andes and bronze to Mexico.

I don't think it's likely the big states in those regions were aware of each other, but a lot of the trade was done from maritime traders living in present-day Ecuador hauling cargo in coast-hugging sailing rafts called balsas (or at least the Spanish called them balsas, they seem to like calling lots of rafts balsas...). These crafts are still traditionally made to this day, which is kinda cool.

Further reading for balsas [1] [2] [3]

(What are these 'Mochica ships'? Google has failed me.)

"Mochica" were people and culture on the northern coast of Peru - just south of Ecuador. I had thought that they were the people who sailed the ships to Mexico. So it was more the people of coastal Ecuador?

 

[DG Valdron]

I did a mini-timeline on Icelandic Bear Domestication. The Bears themselves were imports from the Labrador coast of North America.

As for Aurochs, there's a recent thread on 'Nazi Super Cattle' if you want to look it up. Essentially, the animals in question represented an effort to back breed to Aurochs. Fearsomely aggressive.

Bison... I don't have a lot of direct experience with Bison, but there are a few Bison farms in Manitoba, and I knew a guy who did a television commercial shoot. Mondo dangerous.

 

[Driftless]

Bison... I don't have a lot of direct experience with Bison, but there are a few Bison farms in Manitoba, and I knew a guy who did a television commercial shoot. Mondo dangerous.

There had been a local Bison farm a few miles away, and I knew the owner enough to converse with him. His corrals for the Bison were 5' high hog wire mesh anchored to railroad tie fence posts. He told me that generally the Bison were pretty easy to work with, but they are very big, very strong, and unpredictable. If he needed to work inside the corral he always used the pickup or the (big) tractor and kept the vehicle between him and the Bison. If the Bison appeared to be coming around by him, he always quickly got in the truck or up in the tractor cab. Most of the bulls were castrated when calves to make them more docile. He did keep a bull on site. Onetime one of the bulls shivered a railroad tie fence post with his head. The mesh kept the Bison from completely going through the fence. The farmer did not say what happened to the bull. FWIW, those Bison were only a generation or two removed from wild stock though.

While Bison farms are rare in my neck of the woods, they do occur. Those farms raise the animals for meat. Personally, I think the meat is excellent tasting, similar to beef. It apparently is usually lower in fat and LDL cholesterol, and higher in Omega-3, than comparable beef cuts, so it's a healthy source of protein.

 

[Juumanistra]

There had been a local Bison farm a few miles away, and I knew the owner enough to converse with him. His corrals for the Bison were 5' high hog wire mesh anchored to railroad tie fence posts. He told me that generally the Bison were pretty easy to work with, but they are very big, very strong, and unpredictable. If he needed to work inside the corral he always used the pickup or the (big) tractor and kept the vehicle between him and the Bison. If the Bison appeared to be coming around by him, he always quickly got in the truck or up in the tractor cab. Most of the bulls were castrated when calves to make them more docile. He did keep a bull on site. Onetime one of the bulls shivered a railroad tie fence post with his head. The mesh kept the Bison from completely going through the fence. The farmer did not say what happened to the bull. FWIW, those Bison were only a generation or two removed from wild stock though.

While Bison farms are rare in my neck of the woods, they do occur. Those farms raise the animals for meat. Personally, I think the meat is excellent tasting, similar to beef. It apparently is usually lower in fat and LDL cholesterol, and higher in Omega-3, than comparable beef cuts, so it's a healthy source of protein.

This generally tracks with my (admittedly limited) knowledge of bison-wrangling. 75% of the time, they're as easy -- if not easier -- to handle than cattle. The problem is that other 25% of time, when they don't have ten thousand years of selective breeding normalizing its behavior and you are left dealing with something ferociously strong and equally unpredictable. And woe be upon you if you don't treat that 25% with the respect it deserves.

 

[Dave Howery]

Bison are one of those critters that could probably be domesticated... if you're prepared to confine them for a few hundred generations and breed the aggressive traits out of them. I always wondered if pigs weren't domesticated this way, because Lord knows the wild ones are as mean as they come. Unlike pigs though, bison are big and powerful, and stone age people had no ways to confine them without stone cutting skills (have to build big stone block walls since they lack metal). So... get the natives the ability to make big stone walls like those further south?

 

[DG Valdron]

Bison are one of those critters that could probably be domesticated... if you're prepared to confine them for a few hundred generations and breed the aggressive traits out of them. I always wondered if pigs weren't domesticated this way, because Lord knows the wild ones are as mean as they come. Unlike pigs though, bison are big and powerful, and stone age people had no ways to confine them without stone cutting skills (have to build big stone block walls since they lack metal). So... get the natives the ability to make big stone walls like those further south?

The big question about domestication is why bother? Basically, domestication, even free range domestication, is always a lot of time and effort and bother.

Wild animals are free. The investment is immediate: hunting. And the payoff is substantial.

Domesticated animals are a long term investment, with the return on that investment substantially postponed, and the cost benefit generally a lot lower.

You don't necessarily need confinement. But you do need habituation, and some opportunity to direct breeding.

 

[twovultures]

I always wondered if pigs weren't domesticated this way, because Lord knows the wild ones are as mean as they come. ?

Pigs have a very big advantage over bison for domestication (and the other Big 5 domesticates, for that matter), which is that they will follow human settlements looking for scraps-just like wolves did 10,000 years before them! It's easy to suss out the nicer individuals and capture them young when they're hanging around your camp, and the fact that you can literally feed them shit makes them easy to keep too. Feral pigs nowadays have this behavior, much to the consternation of gardeners and farmers.

EDIT: I should add, their high reproductive rates also help make breeding them both more immediately rewarding and makes it easier to breed for useful traits like (relative) docility. Their reproductive prowess may be the reason that they were domesticated but peccaries weren't IOTL.

 

[SvoHljott]

Capybara cavalry