Your challenge is to have the Khazar Khaganate last longer than the Byzantine Empire. Bonus points if it's still around by 1500.
AHC: Khazar Khaganate outlasts Byzantine Empire
- Thread starter Mort the Reaper
- Start date
I was actually going to ask about what happened if the Khazars beat the Pechenegs and the Rus. As my own thread topic. But you beat me to the Khazar punch.:lol:
But this is a different scenario entirely.
I guess they'd need to do THAT at least. In order to have a good chance. Or maybe they do better in trancaucasia and manage to do what the Seljuk Turks later did.
But this is a different scenario entirely.
I guess they'd need to do THAT at least. In order to have a good chance. Or maybe they do better in trancaucasia and manage to do what the Seljuk Turks later did.
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You will need to strangle the mongle empire in its crib becuse any expansion west of the Urals will almost immediately run into the Khazars.
en.m.wikipedia.org
The most the mongols can expand West before becoming a major nuisance is central asia. But assuming you can make the mongals work well with others (I have my doubts) then the mongals may be able to go into persia and possibly make a quick pitstop in Mesopotamia and eastern anitolia in the event of a Mongal/Khazar alliance with the crusaders to divide the Middle east. (jewish Khazars may help in this regard as a middle man in seeing Islam as a enamy and bridgein command ground with the mongols and the crusaders)
Assuming this is done the Khazars might be able to grab up greater Azerbaijan and possibly expand into the northern Iraq Azerbaijan disporia (I doubt northern Iraq as I think the mongals will expand into greater kurdistan sadly)
en.m.wikipedia.org
In order to still have the Byzantium empire collapse in this empire you would likly need them to collapse via a post crusader fallout with the catholics along the lines of the Latin empire. Assuming you get this to happen you might be able to have the empire of trebizond partitioned with the east and crimia going to the Khazars and the west going to the Latin empire.
en.m.wikipedia.org
If at this point the mongols are still along for the ride then they might be willing to continue cooperation with the catholics primarly to scoop up some of the post Byzantium power vacuume by subduing the Sultanate of Rum and taking there coast line (since the crusaders have the Levant coast) and helping to stabilize the Latin empire against its Nicaean contenders (possibly also taking some of their land)
en.m.wikipedia.org
In the end assuming the mongala can control themselves (not impossible but definitely in question) outside of the oriant there middle eastern lands would be loosely reminiscent of a scaled down version of the recently deceased seljuk empire.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Becuse of this the Ilkhanate khanate might modal its self after it due to there being no golden horde since this likly means more mongal army's in turky
(Mongal settalment had a semi lasting effect in parts of Russia even after their decline leading to regional majoritys maintaining in the northern caucasus today, so in this timeline those would instead be in the middle east)
Likewise more of their Turkish tatars forces from independent tartary (yellow) would be in persia instead of being a major force in Russia (which they maintained in the form of the crimian up until the end of the 1700s otl)
en.m.wikipedia.org
which in turn might lead to a more stable Turco Mongol/Turco Persian culture and possibly leading into a tripartite Fusion if the Ilkhanate khanate holds together (since they are likly inheriting more of what would have been the otl golden hordes forces) and might lead to them emulating a christan friendly version of seljuks (due to Islam being largly subverted as a global force due to a crusader Mongol alliance there may be more motivation for the mongols to convert to Christianity over Islam for diplomatic reasons even though most of there subjects would be Muslim)
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
(Some info on the otl developments of a Mongol crusader alliance below)
en.m.wikipedia.org
Khazars - Wikipedia
Assuming this is done the Khazars might be able to grab up greater Azerbaijan and possibly expand into the northern Iraq Azerbaijan disporia (I doubt northern Iraq as I think the mongals will expand into greater kurdistan sadly)
Whole Azerbaijan - Wikipedia
Empire of Trebizond - Wikipedia
Sultanate of Rum - Wikipedia
Seljuk Empire - Wikipedia
(Mongal settalment had a semi lasting effect in parts of Russia even after their decline leading to regional majoritys maintaining in the northern caucasus today, so in this timeline those would instead be in the middle east)
Likewise more of their Turkish tatars forces from independent tartary (yellow) would be in persia instead of being a major force in Russia (which they maintained in the form of the crimian up until the end of the 1700s otl)
Tartary - Wikipedia
Turco-Mongol tradition - Wikipedia
Turco-Persian tradition - Wikipedia
Franco-Mongol alliance - Wikipedia
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That was... comprehensiveYou will need to strangle the mongle empire in its crib becuse any expansion west of the Urals will almost immediately run into the Khazars.
View attachment 628971
The most the mongols mongols can expand West before becoming a major nuisance is central asia. But assuming you can make the mongals work well with others (I have my doubts) then the mongals may be able to go into persia and possibly make a quick pitstop in Mesopotamia and eastern anitolia in the event of a Mongal/Khazar alliance with the crusaders to divide the Middle east. (jewish Khazars may help in this regard as a middle man in seeing Islam as a enamy and bridgein command ground with the mongols and the crusaders)Khazars - Wikipedia
View attachment 628973
Assuming this is done the Khazars might be able to grab up greater Azerbaijan and possibly expand into the northern Iraq Azerbaijan disporia (I doubt northern Iraq as I think the mongals will expand into greater kurdistan sadly)
View attachment 628972
In order to still have the Byzantium empire collapse in this empire you would likly need them to collapse via a post crusader fallout with the catholics along the lines of the Latin empire. Assuming you get this to happen you might be able to have the empire of trebizond partitioned with the east and crimia going to the Khazars and the west going to the Latin empire.Whole Azerbaijan - Wikipedia
View attachment 628975
If at this point the mongols are still along for the ride then they might be willing to continue cooperation with the catholics primarly to scoop up some of the post Byzantium power vacuume by subduing the Sultanate of Rum and taking there coast line (since the crusaders have the Levant coast) and helping to stabilize the Latin empire against its Nicaean contenders (possibly also taking some of their land)Empire of Trebizond - Wikipedia
View attachment 629012
In the end assuming the mongala can control themselves (not impossible but definitely in question) outside of the oriant there middle eastern lands would be loosely reminiscent of a scaled down version of the recently deceased seljuk empire.Sultanate of Rum - Wikipedia
View attachment 629015
Becuse of this the Ilkhanate khanate might modal its self after it due to there being no golden horde since this likly means more mongal army's in turkySeljuk Empire - Wikipedia
(Mongal settalment had a semi lasting effect in parts of Russia even after their decline leading to regional majoritys maintaining in the northern caucasus today, so in this timeline those would instead be in the middle east)
View attachment 629031
Likewise more of their Turkish tatars forces from independent tartary (yellow) would be in persia instead of being a major force in Russia (which they maintained in the form of the crimian up until the end of the 1700s otl)
View attachment 629032
which in turn might lead to a more stable Turco Mongol/Turco Persian culture and possibly leading into a tripartite Fusion if the Ilkhanate khanate holds together (since they are likly inheriting more of what would have been the otl golden hordes forces) and might lead to them emulating a christan friendly version of seljuks (due to Islam being largly subverted as a global force due to a crusader Mongol alliance there may be more motivation for the mongols to convert to Christianity over Islam for diplomatic reasons even though most of there subjects would be Muslim)Tartary - Wikipedia
View attachment 629013
Turco-Mongol tradition - Wikipedia
(Some info on the otl developments of a Mongol crusader alliance below)Turco-Persian tradition - Wikipedia
Franco-Mongol alliance - Wikipedia
But... the Khazars began their spiral into oblivion pretty much when Svyatoslav wrecked Atil (and other Khazar cities/strongholds) in the 960's... The Mongols didn't begin their period of expansion until the very early 1200's...
200+ years is a very long time... should we assume that Svyatoslav just gets handwaved away, goes to pillage somewhere else? Or should we posit a "temporary setback" followed by a Khazar resurgence? Either way, it'd be an interesting story