Deleted member 67076
With a POD going back to the Abbasids, have the majority of the people within the Great Lakes Region in East Africa follow Islam.
The main problem is that the Swahili - at least before increasing European influence, by which it may already be too late - have no wish and no need to go inland into Africa, because inland groups go to them. This is why it was not until the early 19th century that the Swahili "discovered" Buganda, and even that was only to thwart increasing European competition.
The best way might be to have a very, very lucky/intelligent Sufi mystic go inland in search of adventure.
The best way might be to have a very, very lucky/intelligent Sufi mystic go inland in search of adventure.
GdwnsnHo
Banned
There are two reasonably easy ways to do this I think. Both rely on uniting the Swahili under Islam. This is probably possible as a form of client state - sponsored by the Abbassids. Provide money to support one of the swahili states, in exchange for reduced tariffs. In theory, this sponsor-state unites, and with an influx of Imams, have a pious ruler who is convinced to expand inland.
This then leads to either
1) Imams being free to prosletyse in the interior, under the protection of a Swahili Hegemon.
2) Swahili sponsor invades, perhaps in a few waves of invasion, encouraged by Imams. I'm not sure if there is an economic justification. After a few hundred years of dominance, the region has converted.
This then leads to either
1) Imams being free to prosletyse in the interior, under the protection of a Swahili Hegemon.
2) Swahili sponsor invades, perhaps in a few waves of invasion, encouraged by Imams. I'm not sure if there is an economic justification. After a few hundred years of dominance, the region has converted.
Deleted member 67076
Could one not see a southward spread from the Sudan?
That's more or less OTL, except that the Swahili do not actually exist when the Abbasids are relevant. They're quite a recent ethnic group as we see from their very name. The Swahili were loosely united under the banner of Kilwa Kisiwani. Considering the geography and economic nature of the area you can't get a degree of centralization you see in most other places.
Anyways military expansion inland disturbs the fundamentals of Swahili power (aka trade) and is too expansive anyways - Swahili cities in their first golden age aren't big, rich, or unified enough to afford such expeditions (their second and dimmer golden age, under the suzerainity of Oman, might be different though).
Theoretically, yes, but South Sudan and northern Uganda aren't the best terrain. Also the Islamization of southern Nubia was fairly late (Christian Alodia fell in the 16th century, and obviously the fall of Alodia didn't make every Alodian a Muslim), much later than the Islamization of the Swahili Coast.
Deleted member 67076
Hmm, perhaps this would be different under a (relatively) powerful Egyptian based state that used the Sudan as a hinterland for troops? The Slave trade was always big there, and Mamluks were tradition at this point. I'm assuming no Ottomans here.
From there we might see punitive expeditions? Or maybe a series of vassal states established in which leaders convert the local peoples to curry favor with the Sultan in Cairo? Or I guess the Indonesian route with trade.
Does this make any remote sense?
Or is the Sudd just that impassable?
Hmm, perhaps this would be different under a (relatively) powerful Egyptian based state that used the Sudan as a hinterland for troops? The Slave trade was always big there, and Mamluks were tradition at this point. I'm assuming no Ottomans here.
From there we might see punitive expeditions? Or maybe a series of vassal states established in which leaders convert the local peoples to curry favor with the Sultan in Cairo? Or I guess the Indonesian route with trade.
Does this make any remote sense?
The Sudd is, as I understand it, really, really hard to get through. That, and you run into Ethiopia and other hostile local peoples.
GdwnsnHo
Banned
Actually, this is a solid point - regarding Ethiopia.
If you can have Ethiopia convert, then you could well spread the faith from this direction.
Sudan, Ethiopia, and the coast all Muslim but not sending Imams further in? Seems unlikely to me.
It didn't. Ghana would be a pretty close parallel to this scenario's Great Lakes landscape ("black" Muslim traders bringing exotic stuff) and most of Ghana was never Islamized (indeed Islam was Akanized).
I was thinking more Indonesia and West Africa where trade facilitated a lot, although granted, a lot of the conversion was from the coast inward, I still think its a viable solution. In Ghana, even though they were never majority Muslim, I do believe in the areas where their was the most trade, particularly in the north, there was and remains a large Muslim population and wasent there a Islamic Kingdom of Ghana. If Ghana is similar to the Great Lakes, then I still think its possible, sure it dident work in Ghana, but the same situation worked in Indonesia and the other West African countries, trades convert the rich and some rulers and from there the religion diffuses down the population. The countries being so far inland is an issue yes, but I dont think its a dealbreaker.
Sahelian Ghana actually has nothing whatsoever to do with today's Ghana. And no, very few of the Akan population were Islamized.
The fact remains that the Swahili have no real leverage (unlike the Arabs over the Sahelians). If they don't buy from the infidels their cities are going to be unsustainable before long.
Fair enough on Ghana and the Akan, thought I still thought the Ghana kings were Islamic and the Empire had a lot of Muslims, this area isent my specialty.
What do you mean by the leverage, the traders would still have the rare and exotic goods the rich want, thats true everywhere, I dont see the difference.
I don't know much about the Soninke monarchs of Ghana, and yes they had significant Islamic influences, but I reiterate that the Empire of Ghana has nothing whatsoever at all to do with modern Ghana just as the Republic of Benin has nothing to do with the actual Benin that still exists within Nigeria.
Simply stated, the Swahili need the inlanders more than vice versa.
I understand the Empire is not the same as the current state, I said that last post, my point with that is that I thought that the nobles were Islamic which is really all you need for a religion to diffuse through the country, sure it dident that time, but the point still shows it has worked many times for Islam through the ages, it worked in Malaysia and Indonisia, much or West African coast, and much of East African coast.
The need difference is interesting, I have no idea if your right or not, but the point remains that if the noble convert, there will be diffusion down, unless the people are specifically against that religion then there will be more people to convert to it over the ages. (The Akan people were hostile, they were pushed out of there homeland by Berbers I guess and so were extremely hostile against it) I dont see any reason the inlanders would be against Islam and if you keep a strong trade route open for several hundred years, have some of the kings of chiefs convert, then why wouldent there be at the least a large minoirty. While the power dynamic would matter, I think the rare goods the traders would have would be able to cancel out that issue.
Southeast Asia is a case I don't know much about. I have no idea why you're mentioning the African coasts, because the West African coast south of the Sahel had no Islam (besides the Suwariyya Dyula traders) and Islam was a factor in the Swahili ethnogenesis from the very beginning. Anyways consider that how long it took for the Sahel to be Islamized - Mansa Musa was unable to enforce Islam on the population because most of his gold miners were infidels and could potentially cut off his monetary supply, for example.
And if the King of Buganda for example doesn't convert, the Swahili don't have the clout necessary to punish him economically or militarily (Swahili had little experience with battle anyways). Makes more sense to hold on to old religious traditions instead of an exclusive Abrahamic religion, since Muslims have little effect on the geopolitics of the Great Lakes region while your own priests and people do.
Spread by cow-herding Arabs from the Sudan westwards was done on horseback, going south has the tse-tse problem. That said, Uganda and Rwanda and such are fertile and just perfect for the slave-driven plantation economies historical Jihadi states universally developed in the Sahel in later centuries, so if you can somehow overcome the initial problem with conquests and cross the Sudd, you're in good shape, IMO.
Deleted member 67076
I can imagine. Its the Everglades but much larger.
Hmm, looking at the Tse Tse distribution range there's a small sliver of South Sudan that's free of it, which I suppose a cavalry based army can slip through during a well planned expedition southwest into the Kenyan Highlands.
From there, I guess they'd be like the Fulani and can conquer the small, unorganized cattle kingdoms.
What of a bottom up conversion?
Most cases of general conversion to Islam in a given area, before modern times, tended to be top-down affairs (although "top" may mean local elite, e.g. big merchants, but not necessarily the state rulers). Of course, this does not imply that conversions were forced.