AHC: Islamic Scandinavia by 1000

[SuperTechmarine]

You're right...but still, even if Islam gets there and they do convert and accept all the alcohol stuff and so on and so on eventually a Crusade would crush them.

Ah, the second largest cliche in Islamic TLs:

"Yeah well, they'll just die to a Crusade."

In AH.com

Crusade > anything Islamic

Logistics? Socio-political will? Nuance? Diplomacy? The fact that Al-Andalus and Russia would be Muslim ITTL? Fuck all that, Crusades trump everything, which is why Ottomans stayed a rump Turk principality in Anatolia.

 

[Eivind]

Arabs take Constantinople. Russia accepts Islam as state religion because of its contact with Constantinople and a Swedish king is converted by Russian missionaries and brings Islam to Sweden.

 

[RGB]

Logistics? Socio-political will? Nuance? Diplomacy?

Yes, how do you account for any of those things when you imagine a Muslim Scandinavia? Most people just handwave it because generally that's what it requires.

That said...there are a narrow range of realistic options, almost all of them having to do with a heavily alternate Russia and subsequent Muslim domination of the Baltic trade.

Or just a general failure of the Carolingan era and a complete Islam-wank that takes everything from Constantinople to Paris, that ought to do it too.

 

[shiftygiant]

At first I thought maybe Vladimir of Kiev decides to accept Islam and somehow it spreads north...but he'd never go for that with all no-alcohol policy etc. So...maybe Volga Bulgaria-wank? They were Muslim in the early 10th century and could possibly become powerful enough to take over today's West Russia and then some conqueror could move to Scandinavia and bring Islam while Christianity still isn't too strong. But than again, how would the Vikings go on pillaging, burning and raping without a proper drink to keep them warm in the cold north?

Someone made a post recently about how bullshit no-alcohol would be at blocking an Islamic Russia (Basically the rules are flexible enough to allow Vlad to keep drinking), I'll post it here when I get a chance.

 

[LHB]

At first I thought maybe Vladimir of Kiev decides to accept Islam and somehow it spreads north...but he'd never go for that with all no-alcohol policy etc. So...maybe Volga Bulgaria-wank? They were Muslim in the early 10th century and could possibly become powerful enough to take over today's West Russia and then some conqueror could move to Scandinavia and bring Islam while Christianity still isn't too strong. But than again, how would the Vikings go on pillaging, burning and raping without a proper drink to keep them warm in the cold north?

The no-alcohol policy is one that, while well-known, wasn't as much of a hard and fast rule as people think it is or was. The sale and consumption of alcohol is legal and permitted in modern Turkey and during the Abbasid Caliphate, around the period when such a conversion would take place, a number of fruit-based alcoholic beverages were very popular throughout the Muslim world with evidence of said beverages appearing in texts, archeology, and limited depictions in artwork. If the missionaries heading north don't make a big deal about it then I could see Kiev going for it. After all the main reason the Rus converted was because of the power and wealth of Byzantium; if you can get the Abbasids to better persuade them that the Caliphate is even mightier and wealthier than the Rumi (certainly doable seeing as there was confirmed trade between the Caliphate and Scandinavian and Rus merchants) then you could see Kiev swing the other way, opening the way for missionaries to reach Scandinavia itself.

 

[RGB]

...then you could see Kiev swing the other way, opening the way for missionaries to reach Scandinavia itself.

Kiev is ideally placed for one thing and one thing only: the Dniepr-Dvina trade. A trade system that looks towards the Caspian exclusively would probably center somewhere else; OTL the furthest-east Scandinavian/Rus settlement was Balasagun in modern Tatarstan, which declined to nothing by the end of the 10th c.

However, Rostov and its satellite is old, very old in fact, and Rostov is the capital of Zalesye, which has a good number of potentially brilliant city placements (Moscow, Vladimir, Nizhniy Novgorod) that control the Volga-Baltic transit much better than Kiev ever could.

All you need to do is remove the threat of Volga Bulgaria, something the Russians weren't able to gain a definite upper hand in until the late 13th c. and did not clinch until the late 16th following the Mongol-induced reset.

 

[Sian]

Yes, how do you account for any of those things when you imagine a Muslim Scandinavia? Most people just handwave it because generally that's what it requires.

That said...there are a narrow range of realistic options, almost all of them having to do with a heavily alternate Russia and subsequent Muslim domination of the Baltic trade.

Or just a general failure of the Carolingan era and a complete Islam-wank that takes everything from Constantinople to Paris, that ought to do it too.

Actually, to get to the requested point i think we need both, both a Islamic Russia (most likely via a much earlier fall of Constantinoble) AND the carolingan era being a failure at everything, but prehaps holding the Moors back by the skin of their teeth

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

The subject of alchohol within Fiqh is a difficult subject but is tolerable in some cases, such as the drinker admits what he is doing is Haram, but if he says that no the alchohol is permissible and is Halal, then it is Kufrul-Istihaal (making what Allah has made Haram Halal). This problem is not to be taken lightly and in some cases can lead to Takfir by the Ulema. Either way this is not the main problem, the main problem is the time cronstraint and limitations of the Khilafah at the time.

Give me one example in which there were large Muslim communities (as in states) outside the territory of the Khilafah, without performing Bayait to the Khilafah. The real problem is the need to perform Bayait and the need for a muslim to submit to the Khilafah who is under the guidance of Allah. How would this happen whenever it is obvious that any Russian King that far off would never ever perform Bayait and would convert to Christianity in the 800s thus blocking Islam from Scandanavia. Then the time constraint comes in, and it is doubtful that the Saljuks will have the time to conquer Scandanavia in time for the 1000 AD POD.

The best way to fulfill this is stop the rise of the Abbassids and keep the Umayyads moving forward towards its grand conqeust of Europe. If they can achieve a conquest of Greece, Southern France, and breaking Khazaria then have the Umayyads break in the 800s to revolts leading to numerous Islamic emirates all over Europe, this becomes the chance for both Rus and Scandanavia to convert. What sect of Islam is the big question.

 

[raharris1973]

So...maybe Volga Bulgaria-wank? They were Muslim in the early 10th century and could possibly become powerful enough to take over today's West Russia and then some conqueror could move to Scandinavia and bring Islam while Christianity still isn't too strong.

This. This I would like to see. Muslim, Volga-based Bulgaria becoming the major juggernaut of eastern Europe. We've seen Rus-wanks and we've seen Khazar-wanks, but I've never seen a Muslim Bulgar wank. Worth developing, whether or not it ends up causing Scandinavia to go Muslim as a knock-on.

 

[edvardas]

Even without the alcohol thing, there is one other obstacle, Ramadan. When it falls in the midnight summer, they would starve

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Maybe they should time the hajj at the same time as Ramadan.

 

[Zlorfik]

I'd sooner see an islamic russia (as a result of strong caspian trade, and maybe kiev getting sacked by patzinaks) than a successful volga bulgaria
Also, muslims do fine in northern regions (e.g. Canada.) They adapt, as humans are wont to do- a point that really shouldn't have to be made.

 

[Beaugastly]

I'd sooner see an islamic russia (as a result of strong caspian trade, and maybe kiev getting sacked by patzinaks) than a successful volga bulgaria
Also, muslims do fine in northern regions (e.g. Canada.) They adapt, as humans are wont to do- a point that really shouldn't have to be made.

Definitely true, but it would take some theological maneuvering to get around the Ramadan problem for these newly converted Norse and northern Russians. Fasting during daylight is one thing when you have approximately 12 hours of light, another when you have 20 (or midnight sun, if you go far north enough). You could always go by Mecca time, but that a) requires far better timekeeping than what was available then, and b) is not exactly the orthodox interpretation.

We could always end up with a heterodox interpretation of Islam, I suppose. That would settle some of the day-to-day problems of interpretation.

 

[Sian]

or you could 'simply' shift it to being based on the solar calendar, instead of the Lunar calendar.

Going from the argument that the important thing aren't when exactly to do it (even through there'll likely be some amount of tradition involved) but that you do it consistently, have it somewhere around say Spring Equinox, and don't care too much that you're heterodox as you're to far away for the arabs to more than shake their heads.

I'd say that the issue about Ramadan is proberly one of the lesser problems.

 

[Sir Chaos]

What if Viking raiders, working as mercenaries of some sort for the Muslims in Al-Andalus in the 9th and/or 10th century, convert to Islam, and some enterprising and forward-thinking ruler, such as one of the Emirs/Caliphs of Cordoba, sends missionaries to Scandinavia to help spread Islam there along with the returning converted Vikings?

The Christian kingdoms being weakened by Viking raids is definitely in the interest of Cordoba, so a common interest is there - and if Islam actually takes hold in Scandinavia, it´d open an entirely new front in the invasion of Europe.

The result would probably be a highly heterodox (if not outright heretical, in the eyes of most Sunni and Shia Muslims) version of Islam, blending elements of Norse paganism - blending the Norse Valhalla with the Muslim reward for martyrs, for example.

 

[inawarminister]

About porks.
Javanese and Sundanese Hindus were pretty big on Porks (and poultry), because, well, beef aren't eaten.
Our ancestors reverted that in a couple of generations easily.
Now, alcohol... Eh.

Also all the heterodox paganism traditions would probably survive in Sufis schools like OTL Turkic shamanism, Indian mantras and spirit-botherers, etc.
Funnily enough, the three ancient sects of Islam, Ahlussunnah, Shi'at Ali, and Ibadi (Khawarij) all stem from the events of the last Rashidun, Ali, and the firsts Umayyad caliphs. Nothing else made new sects as envisioned by AH'ers, sorry.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

What about Ahmadiyya?

 

[Eivind]

What about Ahmadiyya?

It was founded at the end of the 19th century.

 

[Sir Chaos]

What about Ahmadiyya?

It was founded at the end of the 19th century.

And a great many Muslims do not consider Ahmadiyya Muslims.

In Pakistan, in particular, Ahmadiyya are forbidden by law to call themselves Muslims (and, in an extra bit of pettiness, from naming their sons Muhammad).

 

[helher]

To have an islamic Scandinavia is asb. The norse did not convert to christianity in one day and the process involved several civil wars and Scandinavia wasn't truly christian until the reformation.