AHC: Islamic Ireland?

[Advernt]

Can someone explain why Charles Martel loses (and dies) and is crushed at Tours -Poitiers in 732, or alternatively, Constantinople is conquered in 717 is not a sufficient POD for an Islamic Ireland?

Alternatively, another POD would be Duke of Aquataine losing in the Battle of Toulouse in 722, since Charles Martel's grip on power wasn't as strong then. You can couple it with a longer Civil War of 715-716. Let's say Charles Martel dies then, and as a result, the war drags on into the 720's, creating a situation that parallels Visigothic Spain. The Muslims move in, and intervene in the war, and wind up conquering most of Southern Gaul. Imagine another POD, with the fall of Constatinople in 717 to the Arab Armies. With enough PODs favoring the Muslims, I think we can potentially see an Islamic Europe.

Of course, it would take quite a few PODs, but hey, if there was a AHC about the OTL Rise of Islam, I think ASB would be what everyone would call it.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Can someone explain why Charles Martel loses (and dies) and is crushed at Tours -Poitiers in 732, or alternatively, Constantinople is conquered in 717 is not a sufficient POD for an Islamic Ireland?

Alternatively, another POD would be Duke of Aquataine losing in the Battle of Toulouse in 722, since Charles Martel's grip on power wasn't as strong then. You can couple it with a longer Civil War of 715-716. Let's say Charles Martel dies then, and as a result, the war drags on into the 720's, creating a situation that parallels Visigothic Spain. The Muslims move in, and intervene in the war, and wind up conquering most of Southern Gaul. Imagine another POD, with the fall of Constatinople in 717 to the Arab Armies. With enough PODs favoring the Muslims, I think we can potentially see an Islamic Europe.

Of course, it would take quite a few PODs, but hey, if there was a AHC about the OTL Rise of Islam, I think ASB would be what everyone would call it.

One thing to note, is that the challenge does not necessarily say that the rest of Europe become Muslim. While that in of itself is an interesting thing, the primary goal is the conversion of Ireland.

 

[Advernt]

One thing to note, is that the challenge does not necessarily say that the rest of Europe become Muslim. While that in of itself is an interesting thing, the primary goal is the conversion of Ireland.

The problem is that it's hard for Ireland to become an isolated Muslim State, without the presence of a Muslim empire in nearby mainland Europe. I agree, it doesn't have to be all of Europe, but isolated Muslim Ireland is near ASB, IMO.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

The problem is that it's hard for Ireland to become an isolated Muslim State, without the presence of a Muslim empire in nearby mainland Europe. I agree, it doesn't have to be all of Europe, but isolated Muslim Ireland is near ASB, IMO.

Most people seemed to be going with a stronger Muslim Iberia being the catalyst.

 

[Shard]

Mega Muslim Wank

That's all we really need for this to work, folks.

If the Muslims go all the way up to France and the HRE, there isn't much to stop them from visiting the Isles and Ireland.

 

[Pachac]

That's all we really need for this to work, folks.

If the Muslims go all the way up to France and the HRE, there isn't much to stop them from visiting the Isles and Ireland.

You say that as if it's easy for them to do that. A victory at Poiters may allow Muslim raiding to continue in earnest in Southern France but under no circumstances will it allow them further conquests. They were overextended and didn't have the Berbers to stabilize the border areas they would have taken. The HRE is just out of the question.

 

[BELFAST]

Ireland with no beer or Whiskey and no pig meat?

South Dublin mosque

Could an Irish American like Kennedy still become president if he was Muslim.

 

[Blurgle]

Could an Irish American like Kennedy still become president if he was Muslim.

Would Kennedy's ancestors have even emigrated to the US if Ireland were Muslim?

 

[BELFAST]

I would favor an Irelnad ruled by Hitler or Stalin to one ruled by Muhammed's disciples! I may be a liberal Romanov, but I'm half Scots-Irish damnit!

An Ireland ruled by Hitler or Stalin is just too nasty to think about.

 

[BELFAST]

Would Kennedy's ancestors have even emigrated to the US if Ireland were Muslim?

Yes. America in those day gave people from all over the world a chance for a better life.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

The problem is that it's hard for Ireland to become an isolated Muslim State, without the presence of a Muslim empire in nearby mainland Europe. I agree, it doesn't have to be all of Europe, but isolated Muslim Ireland is near ASB, IMO.

Frankly I'm siding with this. Not only a muslim Spain, but a France that is either muslim or weak.

 

[pa_dutch]

North Africa is now considered to be a part of the Arab World. What if Morroco to Tunisia remained a originally Romano-Berber Christian culture, and if Egypt remained Greco-Coptic dominant? More cultural diversity and wonder!

Most North Africans follow Islam and speak Arabic, but that doesn't make them the same as Saudi Arabians. The everyday diet is still very Mediterranean - Egyptian food has more in common with Greece than Yemen, for example. The original Arabs were nomadic for the most part, whereas the majority of North Africans have remained settled, agrarian people as their ancestors have been for thousands of years.

 

[pa_dutch]

Ireland with no beer or Whiskey and no pig meat?

They don't necessarily have to give up alcohol. I live in Xinjiang, and there are plenty of Kazakh, Kyrgyz, and even Uyghur Muslims around me who haven't.

 

[Blurgle]

Yes. America in those day gave people from all over the world a chance for a better life.

The point is, would there be a need for emigration in the first place if Ireland were Muslim? Would the potato famine happen? Would potatoes become the main food crop? Would there even be English landlords to strip Ireland of its wealth, or would Ireland be independent?

Even more interesting, would America exist in its current form if Ireland were Muslim?

 

[BELFAST]

The point is, would there be a need for emigration in the first place if Ireland were Muslim? Would the potato famine happen? Would potatoes become the main food crop? Would there even be English landlords to strip Ireland of its wealth, or would Ireland be independent?

Even more interesting, would America exist in its current form if Ireland were Muslim?

Yes I think the England would have invade Ireland and taken the land and rented it back to the Irish Muslim or Christian.

A Muslim Ireland the drug of choice might be Cannabis.

I could see a mixing of Islamic law and Brehon law.

Irish immigration to America could result is a large number of Muslims in America.

 

[Kosta]

Yes I think the England would have invade Ireland and taken the land and rented it back to the Irish Muslim or Christian.

A Muslim Ireland the drug of choice might be Cannabis.

I could see a mixing of Islamic law and Brehon law.

Irish immigration to America could result is a large number of Muslims in America.

Well hang on there, with a Pod so far back that sees the conversion of the Irish to Islam, you probably won't even see a United States of America.

 

[Errnge]

The problem is that it's hard for Ireland to become an isolated Muslim State, without the presence of a Muslim empire in nearby mainland Europe. I agree, it doesn't have to be all of Europe, but isolated Muslim Ireland is near ASB, IMO.

Indonesia did it.

 

[Caliph Suleiman Al-Qanuni]

Actually this is possible, I'm an amateur Islamic historian. But guys I need your help, my knowledge of Britain is lacking. This is also my first post.

I read on Wikipedia while I was reading about Caliph Muhammad al-Nasir of the Almohad Caliphate in southern Ibera and Morocco, that King John was in a fight with the Pope and he said he would convert to Islam of he got help from the Almohad Caliphate during the 1200's.
Note: this caliphate was declining at that moment and lost a huge battle called Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa which he son died in that battle. Let's say he got that invite before that battle. A united Almohad-Kingdom of England could work
Note:the Lord of Ireland was also King of England
What is interesting for me is if someone from England called himself Caliph.
An Islamic Ireland/England won't change it is Christian heritage, it all depends on the ruler, I think it won't have an effect. A good storyline is England/Ireland controlling Iberia at least Southern Iberia and Morocco out of the hand of Almohad which was weakening, a letter and envoy to the Ayyubid and Abbasid would open endless possibilities and trade. Anyone with knowledge of English or Irish history should add something like Magna Carta?????

 

[eliphas8]

Actually this is possible, I'm an amateur Islamic historian. But guys I need your help, my knowledge of Britain is lacking. This is also my first post.

I read on Wikipedia while I was reading about Caliph Muhammad al-Nasir of the Almohad Caliphate in southern Ibera and Morocco, that King John was in a fight with the Pope and he said he would convert to Islam of he got help from the Almohad Caliphate during the 1200's.
Note: this caliphate was declining at that moment and lost a huge battle called Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa which he son died in that battle. Let's say he got that invite before that battle. A united Almohad-Kingdom of England could work
Note:the Lord of Ireland was also King of England
What is interesting for me is if someone from England called himself Caliph.
An Islamic Ireland/England won't change it is Christian heritage, it all depends on the ruler, I think it won't have an effect. A good storyline is England/Ireland controlling Iberia at least Southern Iberia and Morocco out of the hand of Almohad which was weakening, a letter and envoy to the Ayyubid and Abbasid would open endless possibilities and trade. Anyone with knowledge of English or Irish history should add something like Magna Carta?????

Unfortunately for this concept that whole thing with Kim John likely never happened.

 

[Caliph Suleiman Al-Qanuni]

Therefore the only suitable way as I think if is if we creat a PoD in the part where when Al Ghafiqi Governor of Al-Andalus defeat Odo Duke of Aquitaine at the Battle of Bordeaux/the River Garonne and STAYS THERE to protect the castles rather move on with his skimishes. His knowledge of the Gaul region was unknown and Charles Martel who was a military genius. Not to mention the size of Martel's army was large equipped with heavy cavalry but Al-Ghafiqi's army was lacking after their hard-work through Septimania, Aquitaine(Bordeaux), Poitiers and finally Tours which was 200km and something far from the heart and capital of the Frankish Empire/Kingdom. This battle reminds me of Battle of Uhud, one of which the Muslims led by Prophet Muhammad himself vs Abu Sufyan (Father of Muawiya the first Caliph of Umayyad) in this battle Khalid ibn Walid(Who never lost a battle) was part of Abu Sufyan and Muhammad lost because the troops didn't listen to his orders instead they went back to collect their spoils. Prophet Muhammad took a hit in his face especially the nose, anyway the same thing happpend here. Same mentality. Instead of going to Gaul to get some spoils they should have captured with a large army.
On the negative side of conquest of Gaul that it is not good to have one entity around the world, that was Caliph Al-Walid's point of view, after Tariq and Musa ibn Nusayr captured Iberia he brought both of them back to DAMASCUS the capital. Musa a great general wanted to go all the way and hit the Byzantine Empire from the west, he got called ASAP.
"And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ." Sura 11:118