AHC: Integration of Colonies to the Metropolis.

[Red_Galiray]

In OTL several colonial powers tried to fully integrate their colonies and make them integral parts of their countries, generally by sending thousands of their people to the colonies. Most of the time, those people (like the pied-noirs of Algeria) would be the only, priviliged citizens, while the natives would be "inferior" colonial subjects. I was wondering, though, if fully integrating a colony to a country is possible. Perhaps if the country gave citizenship to the natives, but I see that as something almost impossible. France and Algeria may be the most well-known example, but other include Italy (which tried to turn Lybia into its four shore) and Japan (IIRC, Japan sent thousands of Japaneses to Korea and Manchuria, and around WWII tried to teach them that they were all one and the same). The challenge, is thus to create a situation where a colonial European power could integrate a colony they conquered to their country, such that the people there would have citizenship, see themselves as members of that power and speak the language, at least as a second tongue (if not, have their language be recognized by the government, like French in otherwise primarily anglophone Canada).

By the way, don't use the Americas for this. Arguably, some, if not most of them became culturally assimilated by their colonizators, and I'd also like the possible examples to be feasible with late XIXth Century technology. So, the Colonial Power and its colony must be somewhat close.

 

[SeaBos]

Well the first thing you need is a small colony, trying to truly integrate a large colony would never fly. If there is any thought that the colony could realistically mandate policy back in the metropole, people would scream bloody murder at the thought. Off the top of my head Ireland would probably be the best bet, it was already part of the UK, you just need have a more accommodating view of Catholicism.

 

[galanx]

Taiwan was Japan's first and most successful colony; in the 1930s they began a process of trying to assimilate the Taiwanese. While the use of Japanese language was widespread, and some aspects of Japanese culture widely adopted (baseball!), the problem was Japanese ethnocentrism (racism). Japan never had an ideology that could embrace natives as equals.

 

[St. Just]

It's only possible if enough settlers are sent to provide a colonialist elite (Algeria) or if making them theoretically metropolitan bolsters your claims to the land (Salazar's Portugal) or if they are tiny, essentially assimilated islands/Guyana (20th century France).

Colonialism was, despite the rhetoric, never meant to truly integrate the conquered. In the cases you mentioned, settlers were sent to monopolize local economies and form workable majorities so as to govern these colonies. The natives were never assimilable, even by France -- because the exploitation of colonialism was easier to run when the exploited were dehumanized by colonial racism.

 

[telynk]

Does Russia integrating sIberia count?? Cause that''s otl....

I feel like one of the problems with this challege is that when we look at territories that WERE integrated, we no longer think of them as having ever been colonies (e.g. Hawaii and alaska to the US, siberia to Russia, northern Ireland to UK, ceuta and mellila to Spain, st pierre and miquelon to France, etc)

 

[Arkenfolm]

The aforementioned Libya is an example of something that might work, especially if they spin off Fezzan into its own colony/country. Japan has a high chance of being able to do it with Taiwan in the long run, and already effectively had with the South Pacific Mandate/Nan'you (in the same way the US did with Hawaii).

Well the first thing you need is a small colony, trying to truly integrate a large colony would never fly. If there is any thought that the colony could realistically mandate policy back in the metropole, people would scream bloody murder at the thought.

This is the biggest hazard of trying to do this, and would eventually lead to the mother country trying to declare independence from her former colony. Great examples would be the Thirteen Colonies and Britain, Brazil and Portugal, etc. So only a smaller colony would work.

Does Russia integrating sIberia count?? Cause that''s otl....

I feel like one of the problems with this challege is that when we look at territories that WERE integrated, we no longer think of them as having ever been colonies (e.g. Hawaii and alaska to the US, siberia to Russia, northern Ireland to UK, ceuta and mellila to Spain, st pierre and miquelon to France, etc)

Really, this. If Japan integrated Taiwan, it wouldn't be thought of as a colony, but as the fifth home island of Japan.

 

[Red_Galiray]

Taiwan was Japan's first and most successful colony; in the 1930s they began a process of trying to assimilate the Taiwanese. While the use of Japanese language was widespread, and some aspects of Japanese culture widely adopted (baseball!), the problem was Japanese ethnocentrism (racism). Japan never had an ideology that could embrace natives as equals.

So, had the Japanese been more tolerant and embraced an indeology that saw the natives as equals, Taiwain would be fully assimilated by now? Interesting... what was the population of Taiwan around WWII?

It's only possible if enough settlers are sent to provide a colonialist elite (Algeria) or if making them theoretically metropolitan bolsters your claims to the land (Salazar's Portugal) or if they are tiny, essentially assimilated islands/Guyana (20th century France).

Colonialism was, despite the rhetoric, never meant to truly integrate the conquered. In the cases you mentioned, settlers were sent to monopolize local economies and form workable majorities so as to govern these colonies. The natives were never assimilable, even by France -- because the exploitation of colonialism was easier to run when the exploited were dehumanized by colonial racism.

The only one of the examples you provided that could be said to be assimilated nowadays is Guyana, and I don't think they count since they're in the Americas. I know that in the heigh of colonialism the Colonial Powers would never, ever see the natives as equals and almost everyone in the Metropoli would refuse and be against any proposal to give them citizenship (there was a proposal in France to give citizenship to various Muslims in Algeria, but it didn't prosper). However, there must be someway to make the colonizators more... gentil later on, so that the natives would like to stay with them and eventually be seen as citizens of an integral part of the country.

Does Russia integrating sIberia count?? Cause that''s otl....

I feel like one of the problems with this challege is that when we look at territories that WERE integrated, we no longer think of them as having ever been colonies (e.g. Hawaii and alaska to the US, siberia to Russia, northern Ireland to UK, ceuta and mellila to Spain, st pierre and miquelon to France, etc)

I should've said that Siberia doesn't count. Neither do the lands the US conquered and settled in the west, simply because those lands were adjacent to the country and thus easier to settle and control, and also because both countries had a population big enough to surpass the natives easily without having to move large numbers. Enclaves and little islands are more easily to assimilate obviously, so they don't count either. The assimilated colony for the challenge should be overseas, but still close enough to the colonial power, and have a significative native population that the colonizators couldn't surpass easily, short of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Take for example, the UK and Ireland in 1900 - the UK had almost forty millon people, Ireland had 4 million. The UK would have to transport at least 10% of its population to match that of Ireland, and that simply isn't feasible.

There can be a significative population from the mainland (like the pied-noirs in Algeria) but the natives must at least still represent more or less half of the territory, have (legally) the same rights and duties as the colonizators and see themselves and be seen by the people in the mainland as citizens and people of the colonial power. The territories you mention were settled by the people of the colonial power who came to eventualy surpass the natives there.

 

[St. Just]

Colonizers cannot be made more gentle -- giving natives rights and political representation would hurt the metropolitan financiers and capitalists who were invested in the colonial project. The natives, on the other hand, were beginning to access European education and nationalist ideology, making imperial integration even harder (since obv. they'd want more investment and equality instead of a colonial subservient relationship).

In fact, given the costs of outright rule, a lot of elites switched to being ambivalent to independence while preserving their assets and contracts in ex-colonies as part of the gatekeeper state (see: Francafrique).

 

[Red_Galiray]

Colonizers cannot be made more gentle -- giving natives rights and political representation would hurt the metropolitan financiers and capitalists who were invested in the colonial project. The natives, on the other hand, were beginning to access European education and nationalist ideology, making imperial integration even harder (since obv. they'd want more investment and equality instead of a colonial subservient relationship).

In fact, given the costs of outright rule, a lot of elites switched to being ambivalent to independence while preserving their assets and contracts in ex-colonies as part of the gatekeeper state (see: Francafrique).

I guess that fully integrating large colonies like Algeria, Lybia and Korea would be impossible then. Some natives may become loyalist, but the great majority won't like the colonizators in the slightless, while the people in the Metropoli would never be able to see them as equals, and would favor independence of the colony before something that may harm the Metropli...

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Something like this happened in Europe OTL. The European nation states were formed by a process of getting what had been distinct regions to adopt the language and culture of one dominant region. This is most notable and obvious with France. "France" used to be just the area around Paris.

The Chinese did the same with turning southern China Chinese.

They key of this type of integration is to be relentless and to concentrate especially on education and language. Its also good to otherwise allow the integrated people equal rights (except for using their own language!), mainly to curb the temptation of elites in the metropolis to use them as cheap/ plantation labour, in which case it is in their interest to exaggerate the differences. Also the process takes quite a long time, longer than the post-industrial revolution colonial empires lasted.

Another method is to ethnically cleanse the natives and replace them with settlers.

As long as the dominant culture remains at least two thirds of the population, the multi-cultural approach is feasible. That is that everyone just accepts that province X contains people who speak a strange language or have a weird religion, and yeah, our nation includes X though its not really typical. Province X might have a different legal status from the other places. The United States itself does this with Puerto Rico and the indian reservations, and parts of southern Texas never got assimilated. As shown by the example of Quebec, if X is big enough and importance enough, expect lots of political controversy over its status, which never really gets settled, and X might wind up breaking away anyway.

Of the post-industrial revolution European colonial empires, assimilation would have been completely impossible anyway once the green revolution population boom got underway. Otherwise, the best candidates would have been low population areas such as islands and marginal areas such as Libya. I do think that with much more effort than IOTL, a federation between the "white dominions" and England would have been possible, but keep in mind that the British couldn't even keep Ireland within the UK.

 

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

So the western portions of the United States don't count, but Canada or Australia would, if integrated into the United Kingdom?

 

[Red_Galiray]

Something like this happened in Europe OTL. The European nation states were formed by a process of getting what had been distinct regions to adopt the language and culture of one dominant region. This is most notable and obvious with France. "France" used to be just the area around Paris.

The Chinese did the same with turning southern China Chinese.

They key of this type of integration is to be relentless and to concentrate especially on education and language. Its also good to otherwise allow the integrated people equal rights (except for using their own language!), mainly to curb the temptation of elites in the metropolis to use them as cheap/ plantation labour, in which case it is in their interest to exaggerate the differences. Also the process takes quite a long time, longer than the post-industrial revolution colonial empires lasted.

Another method is to ethnically cleanse the natives and replace them with settlers.

As long as the dominant culture remains at least two thirds of the population, the multi-cultural approach is feasible. That is that everyone just accepts that province X contains people who speak a strange language or have a weird religion, and yeah, our nation includes X though its not really typical. Province X might have a different legal status from the other places. The United States itself does this with Puerto Rico and the indian reservations, and parts of southern Texas never got assimilated. As shown by the example of Quebec, if X is big enough and importance enough, expect lots of political controversy over its status, which never really gets settled, and X might wind up breaking away anyway.

Of the post-industrial revolution European colonial empires, assimilation would have been completely impossible anyway once the green revolution population boom got underway. Otherwise, the best candidates would have been low population areas such as islands and marginal areas such as Libya. I do think that with much more effort than IOTL, a federation between the "white dominions" and England would have been possible, but keep in mind that the British couldn't even keep Ireland within the UK.

I see, but the people that would eventually come to be known as French were all of one ethnic group (please correct me if I'm mistaken) and spoke similar languages, all variations and descended from Latin. I've always wondered why Russia wasn't able to assimilate the Ukranians and Baltics (no matter what they claimed, they still had a culture and language different than that of the "Great Russians")... was it for lack of education? Anyway, the challenge is to do this with a colonial Empire that conquered a people different from its own, in language, culture and possibily ethnicity, without genocide or ethnic cleansing. It seems that such a challenge is practically impossible.

So the western portions of the United States don't count, but Canada or Australia would, if integrated into the United Kingdom?

No, Canada doesn't count because it is in the Americas and most of the natives there died due to diseases, and those that remained are now a very little minority almost completly integrated. Thus, there is not enough natives to satisfy the conditions for the challenge. Australia has the same problems with its own natives, but I think it could count... if the distances between it and the UK weren't so large.

 

[SRBO]

So wait you want a colony with native majority that never assimilates into being a full province? That's beyond impossible

 

[Arkenfolm]

So, had the Japanese been more tolerant and embraced an indeology that saw the natives as equals, Taiwain would be fully assimilated by now? Interesting... what was the population of Taiwan around WWII?

Just under 6 million. The population of Taiwan was something like 5% Japanese, and in some parts over 10% Japanese. Even in prefectures with minimal Japanese settlement, there was still a presence of Japanese there. If you got rid of Korea, Manchuria, and Sakhalin (Russo-Japanese War gone wrong but not horribly so?), and focused Japanese colonisation efforts solely on Taiwan (well, we can give them Nan'you), then you'd have something like 2 million more Japanese available to settle in Taiwan. Now, not all of them will, but you could shift the demographics immensely.

 

[Red_Galiray]

So wait you want a colony with native majority that never assimilates into being a full province? That's beyond impossible

Yeah, now I realize that. I honestly thought it was impossible since the very moment I posted this challenge, but I was curious if anybody could come up with a form to do that.

Just under 6 million. The population of Taiwan was something like 5% Japanese, and in some parts over 10% Japanese. Even in prefectures with minimal Japanese settlement, there was still a presence of Japanese there. If you got rid of Korea, Manchuria, and Sakhalin (Russo-Japanese War gone wrong but not horribly so?), and focused Japanese colonisation efforts solely on Taiwan (well, we can give them Nan'you), then you'd have something like 2 million more Japanese available to settle in Taiwan. Now, not all of them will, but you could shift the demographics immensely.

I see... Thanks for the information, really useful. I could, perhaps, apply it in my Timeline. I'd like to have a somewhat more strong and big Japan, without them commiting their Chinese attrocities, so that could work. It is also an example of the challenge being completed, since Taiwan is an overseas territory that was conquered and had a significant native population. If everything goes right, all the conditions (having citizenship, speak the language, see themselves and be seen as members of the conquerors' people) should also be fullfiled.

 

[Flocculencio]

If you exclude the Americas, someplace like Singapore is probably actually your best bet. It's wealthy enough for the colonial power to want to keep, doesn't have another great power which sees it as integral territory (unlike Hong Kong), and while there was an independence movement it was not so hostile to Britain as to be unwilling to enter talks about joining the UK on equal terms as any integral part of British territory.

 

[Red_Galiray]

If you exclude the Americas, someplace like Singapore is probably actually your best bet. It's wealthy enough for the colonial power to want to keep, doesn't have another great power which sees it as integral territory (unlike Hong Kong), and while there was an independence movement it was not so hostile to Britain as to be unwilling to enter talks about joining the UK on equal terms as any integral part of British territory.

I quite like the idea of Singapore remaining British, but don't you think it is too far away from the UK to be kept as in integral part of the state?

 

[Flocculencio]

I quite like the idea of Singapore remaining British, but don't you think it is too far away from the UK to be kept as in integral part of the state?

Oh I don't think it's likely but if the UK really wanted to keep it, that would probably be the only way.

I mean France and the Netherlands have integrated far off possessions into the metropole but Singapore would be a disproportionately heavily populated and commercially important instance of this.

 

[galanx]

I see... Thanks for the information, really useful. I could, perhaps, apply it in my Timeline. I'd like to have a somewhat more strong and big Japan, without them commiting their Chinese attrocities, so that could work. It is also an example of the challenge being completed, since Taiwan is an overseas territory that was conquered and had a significant native population. If everything goes right, all the conditions (having citizenship, speak the language, see themselves and be seen as members of the conquerors' people) should also be fullfiled.

Japan's population in 1940 was about 73 million.

To get something of the feeling, Taiwanese director Wei Te-Sheng's "Japanese" trio of movies,:
Cape No.7: deals with relationships from the Japanese colonial era, though mostly set in the present.
Warriors of the Rainbow: based on a historical event, the revolt of an aboriginal tribe against Japanese rule in 1930 (the two and a half hour international version is good enough; the six-hour original adds a lot more beheadings and counter-massacres.)
Kano (he produced, not directed, that one): also based on a true story about an underdog Taiwanese baseball team that goes to the Japanese High School tournament in 1931 and makes it all the way to the championship game (yes, it's heart-warming.)

Though all three were very popular, Wei got some criticism from Mainlanders for whitewashing Japanese rule, especially for Kano.

Many older Taiwanese (like my wife!) tend to romanticise the Japanese era: sure they were tough, even cruel sometimes, but they got things done and there wasn't any crime and young people respected their elders and teachers etc. My wife and many other aborigines of her generation (born in the fifties to Japanese-educated parents) still use short forms of Japanese names for their everyday life

 

[Deleted member 93645]

If the French never invaded Spain, it might have been able to retain part of its American colonial empire (even if just Cuba). With the invention and spread of the telegram, a large part of Latin America could become an integral part of Spain.