AHC: Hostile German Troops in Washington DC
- Thread starter ThatOneGuy
- Start date
To have this really happen the way the OP probably wants (not a POW prison break) is close to impossible. However, let me try.
Germany wins WW1 by playing defense. France impales themselves, Russia impales themselves, in 1915 they sow up the Balkans and Great Britain never joins in. By 1916, the Russian army is collapsing, the French army is mutinying, and when Russia completely collapses in 1917 France sues for peace and pays reparations, and does Russia plus giving Germany all of Ukraine, Poland and the Balkans.
Germany avoids the huge amount of debts and financial indemnities of OTL (relatively). By the 1930s, Germany is a Constitutional Monarchy. The USSR is essentially cowed as they bankroll friendly leadership. By 1944, the Germans have long range jet bombers, nukes, and rockets. They keep this secret and a few years later (1950-55) the Brits and Americans overplay their hand over something and the Germans drop the nukes over key British and US naval bases in the Atlantic. The US and Britain do not have the means of serious retaliation. The British sue for peace, the US doesn't.
The Germany navy floats unopposed into Washington DC (Manhattan, Boston, Baltimore, and other large US population centers on the Atlantic are nuked by now.) THe Kreigsmarine bombards DC and an amphibious assault takes place, hoping to surround most of the US's federal government in order to force a peace.
I think the above is at least somewhat plausible, as a German WW1 victory in such a sense leaves Germany with the best university system in the world, less debt (and possibly no Great Depression), a demand for a military buildup (as occupying Europe requires a strong military), and a much better economy and workforce without the Nazis so that Germany will be light years ahead in jet engine, computer, rocket, and nuclear research. The US simply would not have the technology to do much about it (plus, the GDP for military purposes without WW2 would be very small) and the British are simply way too close for comfort.
Germany wins WW1 by playing defense. France impales themselves, Russia impales themselves, in 1915 they sow up the Balkans and Great Britain never joins in. By 1916, the Russian army is collapsing, the French army is mutinying, and when Russia completely collapses in 1917 France sues for peace and pays reparations, and does Russia plus giving Germany all of Ukraine, Poland and the Balkans.
Germany avoids the huge amount of debts and financial indemnities of OTL (relatively). By the 1930s, Germany is a Constitutional Monarchy. The USSR is essentially cowed as they bankroll friendly leadership. By 1944, the Germans have long range jet bombers, nukes, and rockets. They keep this secret and a few years later (1950-55) the Brits and Americans overplay their hand over something and the Germans drop the nukes over key British and US naval bases in the Atlantic. The US and Britain do not have the means of serious retaliation. The British sue for peace, the US doesn't.
The Germany navy floats unopposed into Washington DC (Manhattan, Boston, Baltimore, and other large US population centers on the Atlantic are nuked by now.) THe Kreigsmarine bombards DC and an amphibious assault takes place, hoping to surround most of the US's federal government in order to force a peace.
I think the above is at least somewhat plausible, as a German WW1 victory in such a sense leaves Germany with the best university system in the world, less debt (and possibly no Great Depression), a demand for a military buildup (as occupying Europe requires a strong military), and a much better economy and workforce without the Nazis so that Germany will be light years ahead in jet engine, computer, rocket, and nuclear research. The US simply would not have the technology to do much about it (plus, the GDP for military purposes without WW2 would be very small) and the British are simply way too close for comfort.
TinyTartar
Banned
The East German Embassy in Washington is secretly staffed with an entire battalion of military personnel disguised as diplomats, ready to be deployed to seize the city at a single phone call.
The US builds a large prisoner camp in Washington DC during WWII.These soldiers riot when the US have some of them tried for war crimes.
Hitler is informed about the Japanese actions in the "Southern Resource Area". He wants help against Russia and makes arrangements to also declare war on the US at the time of the attacks, so that Japan will declare war on Russia and the supplies being shipped over will cease. Russian ships carrying supplies were not attacked by Japan in the pacific in OTL, no state of war being declared between them.
The Japanese make no commitment to these actions, so, Hitler decides to make as grand an action as the Japanese. But, since he is more political, his will be to 'cut the head off of corrupt democracies'. Plans are made.
In the weeks up to December event hundreds of German tourists begin to visit the US, military forces and their families, many on them visiting high profile sites in the capitol. The week before the attacks, the women and the children return to Germany. Supplies are picked up and the forces prepare.
Hitler's advisors tell what the probable reactions of the US government will be after the attacks, a joint session of congress in order to declare war and a speech by the president, attended by many of the powerful and influential of the US. This will be their target.
The attacks occur and the actions occur, crowds surrounding the capitol while the legislature is in it's special session.
A few minutes after the Presidents 'day of infamy' speech begins the German actions occur. Dressed in new uniforms, that looked precisely like an American suit, one soldier per emergency exit, the exit is forced open, an incendiary device and accelerant is placed inside as well as packages of bullets. The exit door is then wedged shut.
The devices go off, the accelerant spreads the fire, the bullets cook off at random times making things even more chaotic. Smoke fills the building
as the fire spreads. Panic begins, becoming more so as the lack of exits becomes apparent.
The German forces retreat, few realizing what their part was in this tragedy. They eventually make their way to neutral countries and return to the Reich.
More than 134 people die and several hundred are injured. Life magazine's cover that week is of President Roosevelt being lowered into the waiting hands of police forces, smoke billowing from the window. He dies later that day.
While the war effort is delayed, the resolve of the American people are redoubled. At war's end there are multiple radioactive craters in Germany.
The Japanese make no commitment to these actions, so, Hitler decides to make as grand an action as the Japanese. But, since he is more political, his will be to 'cut the head off of corrupt democracies'. Plans are made.
In the weeks up to December event hundreds of German tourists begin to visit the US, military forces and their families, many on them visiting high profile sites in the capitol. The week before the attacks, the women and the children return to Germany. Supplies are picked up and the forces prepare.
Hitler's advisors tell what the probable reactions of the US government will be after the attacks, a joint session of congress in order to declare war and a speech by the president, attended by many of the powerful and influential of the US. This will be their target.
The attacks occur and the actions occur, crowds surrounding the capitol while the legislature is in it's special session.
A few minutes after the Presidents 'day of infamy' speech begins the German actions occur. Dressed in new uniforms, that looked precisely like an American suit, one soldier per emergency exit, the exit is forced open, an incendiary device and accelerant is placed inside as well as packages of bullets. The exit door is then wedged shut.
The devices go off, the accelerant spreads the fire, the bullets cook off at random times making things even more chaotic. Smoke fills the building
as the fire spreads. Panic begins, becoming more so as the lack of exits becomes apparent.
The German forces retreat, few realizing what their part was in this tragedy. They eventually make their way to neutral countries and return to the Reich.
More than 134 people die and several hundred are injured. Life magazine's cover that week is of President Roosevelt being lowered into the waiting hands of police forces, smoke billowing from the window. He dies later that day.
While the war effort is delayed, the resolve of the American people are redoubled. At war's end there are multiple radioactive craters in Germany.
I feel like I'm the only guy who gave a serious attempt to make it work, though perhaps the last post might qualify.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
The Issue is that these developments are expensive. Outside of a war you can't keep these secret, the line items are simply too big, the German Empire did have debates over military budgets in the Reichstag. The US and UK would know it, with an open research enviornment they would not be far behind, can just read German scientific journals. When sufficiently scared they will pay out enough to match Germany (Imperial Germany is more capable than the Nazi's, but is not willing to wreck their economy spending on the military like the Nazi's were in peacetime)
The kind of military needed to keep a lid on Eastern Europe is not the kind of military needed to face off with major powers. Need large amounts of light forces, which eat budget otherwise to be used for heavy forces
Perhaps, but Germany was not by necessity an open society and without ASBs could have monopolized on nuclear research (simply pay the best to get the talent, plus retaining their own) and rocket research. Rocket research might not be secret (nor nuclear power research) but military applications could have been kept secret. Further, without most of Europe's minds to draw from (including stealing British knowledge) the US program even with money and the desire to keep up with Europe, simply cannot.
Further, IOTL, without WW2 the US never seriously pursued a buildup. They historically kept a very small standing army, and only had a crash program to make tanks and stuff. So, the US will likely develop long range bombers and perhaps a nuke, but will they have the brainpower to do it and will they commit even a fraction of the OTL budget? A Germany the dominates Europe in the 1920s-1940s is not going to elicit a Cold War response (spend money and counter the threat). WW2 changed the US psyche. In this time line, the US did not even take part in WW1. So it is likely that they will not even respond to European developments until it is relatively too late.
So, though an unlikely course of events, it is at least possible.
Further, IOTL, without WW2 the US never seriously pursued a buildup. They historically kept a very small standing army, and only had a crash program to make tanks and stuff. So, the US will likely develop long range bombers and perhaps a nuke, but will they have the brainpower to do it and will they commit even a fraction of the OTL budget? A Germany the dominates Europe in the 1920s-1940s is not going to elicit a Cold War response (spend money and counter the threat). WW2 changed the US psyche. In this time line, the US did not even take part in WW1. So it is likely that they will not even respond to European developments until it is relatively too late.
So, though an unlikely course of events, it is at least possible.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Not sure what you mean by open society. They still published scientific papers read by the entire world. Newspapers still discussed military appropriations
The issue is that without a war there is not much you can keep secret without alerting people "secret here". And the US and UK were both interested in nuclear energy for military applications as far back as 1938 (though they were thinking reactors not bombs). Likewise the potential of rockets as weapons was already known, as soon as they become effective they were deployed
The US and UK can draw on that as well. The US was richer than Germany per capita before the war and growing richer faster and had a larger population that was growing faster, they can pay more. They can also get expertise from other countries on a lot of things and simply buy the expertise from Germany, that was not unusual, they both did that before WWI with weapons
The US started preparing before both WWI and WWII. In fact without WWI they are likely to prepare more as the pacifist movement in the US is much weaker. Also the US made a major military buildup pre WWI going from something like 10th in terms of naval strength to 3rd or 4th. When the US gets scared it tends to launch a military buildup, and anyone (besides the UK who already have it) getting the ability to really hurt the US will scare them. The difference post WWII was that instead of investing purely in defenses as they did before they grew more willing to invest in offensive measures
If the US was willing to accept a slower appraoch nukes would be much cheaper, and still come by 1950
The issue is that without a war there is not much you can keep secret without alerting people "secret here". And the US and UK were both interested in nuclear energy for military applications as far back as 1938 (though they were thinking reactors not bombs). Likewise the potential of rockets as weapons was already known, as soon as they become effective they were deployed
The US and UK can draw on that as well. The US was richer than Germany per capita before the war and growing richer faster and had a larger population that was growing faster, they can pay more. They can also get expertise from other countries on a lot of things and simply buy the expertise from Germany, that was not unusual, they both did that before WWI with weapons
The US started preparing before both WWI and WWII. In fact without WWI they are likely to prepare more as the pacifist movement in the US is much weaker. Also the US made a major military buildup pre WWI going from something like 10th in terms of naval strength to 3rd or 4th. When the US gets scared it tends to launch a military buildup, and anyone (besides the UK who already have it) getting the ability to really hurt the US will scare them. The difference post WWII was that instead of investing purely in defenses as they did before they grew more willing to invest in offensive measures
If the US was willing to accept a slower appraoch nukes would be much cheaper, and still come by 1950
redlightning
Banned
I can see saboteurs being smuggled into the country with a U-boat. They are able to come across conventional explosives and want to attack Washington in a series of bombings. It's also possible they can attack with an armed attack.
Explosives are planted inside of the Capitol building, near the White House, Department of Defense, etc. and detonated with timers in the hopes of kill high rank officials.
Snipers may be out and about to kill President Roosevelt, high ranking military officials, or others in government.
Explosives are planted inside of the Capitol building, near the White House, Department of Defense, etc. and detonated with timers in the hopes of kill high rank officials.
Snipers may be out and about to kill President Roosevelt, high ranking military officials, or others in government.
Um.
Central Powers victory + the United States completely implodes into civil war at some point. German expeditionary force lands to prop up US White forces against the Reds in the Potomac.
Maybe?
Central Powers victory + the United States completely implodes into civil war at some point. German expeditionary force lands to prop up US White forces against the Reds in the Potomac.
Maybe?
The only plausible TL I've ever seen of this was one that depicted German soldiers in the US as part of a coalition of European armies under a League of Nations mandate. It also involved a Yellowstone eruption so it would take a lot to knock the US down to that point.
Yes, but they were not historically a democracy so that if something was considered of military importance and covered up, that some attempt in covering it up cannot be made successfully. A nuclear bomb program, or rocket program, can have crucial details not released to the public. So, the US and Britain may no that the Germans are trying to build a reactor, they know they are too, and there isn't a second world war where anyone is super concerned to get it out real quick.
It doesn't hurt Germany to have a near monopoly on the science.
True, but the US historically spent very little on their military. Until it became really obvious the US had war looming, they kept a standing army smaller than Romania. So, if history is any indication, the US will research things, but not invest the percent of GDP that a European power would in its military.
Again, I think you are presuming the US would be on solid Cold War footing in an arms race. However, the COld War does not exist in this timeline. The US never fought in Europe, and the isolationists would be much stronger and not having the vision to see the necessity to develop weapons to the extent Britain and Germany would.
But not long before.
A late crash program in tanks, jets, and nukes is still going to put the US at a disadvantage that they are starting too late and are not going to be drawing upon Britain's science, and a bunch of Europeans who fled Europe.
I doubt it. The US and Great Britain had many German-born scientists, let alone scientists from the rest of Europe. If Germany wins WW1, they retain funding in their universities and can likely retain and make it attractive for the majority of these men to do research in Germany. I think you underestimate the pressures to immigrate to greener pastures from Germany's WW1 loss that led to a brain drain in Europe.
Simply read up on the Manhattan Project and Britain's nuclear research. There are tons of foreign born people. Take away even half of them and you make a huge difference.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
The issue is that the coverup would be revealing something is going on weird there. If the top German nuclear scientists stop publishing papers the US and UK would know something fishy is going on there. Same for other subjects, and whatever they wanted would be obvious from the point where they stopped publishing
If Germany is spending like it is the Cold War, aimed at the US, then the US would spend to match. The US spent based on threats, there was no land based threat to the US so it spent on seapower and coast defenses rather lavishly. So if Germany threatens the US with Bombers and nukes the US will spend in response
Two years was the normal minimum
Maybe in Tanks, but the US would be inclined to research jets and nukes for its navy, which was not stinted all that much, or it would not be one of the largest in the world pre WWI. So the US would have a hard time attacking but would be perfectly able to keep Germany over there and not neccesarily need tanks right away
German immigration to the US in the 20 years before the war was about the same rate as the 20 years after the war
Yes there were tons but they were also a minority even there. I could just as well ask how Germany would develop an atom bomb without the US born team that developed the techniques to machine Uranium and Plutonium. It would still get developed but slower, same for the US and UK
1989. A sunny Friday afternoon in Washington, DC. A middling-sized office at the US State Department, Office of Foreign Missions. Two officials are going through some reports.
Jim: "I told you, Mike, these reports on the Communist countries' embassies have the most hilarious mistakes in them! Get a load of this, for example:
In the fiscal year of 1988..., the Embassy of the German Democratic Republic asked for accreditation for 678 additional Cultural Attachés. After a summary procedure, the request was approved by the State Department...
678 Cultural Attachés! What a hoot! What do you think the real number should be? 6-8? Even that would be a little high, dontcha think?"
Mike: "That is - that is something. Let me check the computer..."
Types furiously with two fingers, hitting Return at appropriate places.
Mike: "...Embassy staffing...The German Democratic Republic... It says here 'Cultural Attaché: 680'... No that can't be right..."
Jim: "What the hell? Print out the list of names, would you?"
Mike nods and hits Print. The matrix printer goes live. Mike rips out the printed list and scans it.
Mike: "Müller, Schneider, Wancke, Gunther, Otto, Gruber..."
Jim: "Did you say 'Gruber'? Not 'Simon Gruber', surely?"
Mike: "No, that's right, 'Simon Gruber'. What about him?"
Jim goes quiet and pale. Outside of the building, the sound of police and fire truck sirens can now be heard.
Jim: "This could be bad. Really bad."
Jim picks up the phone.
Jim: "Phyllis? Put me through to the Director... What, what do you mean 'can't be reached'. Goddammit, Phyllis! On a second thought, I want you to connect me to the White House. Yes, the fucking White House! Tell them I want the President himself!"
Right then, there is a huge explosion and one end of the room just ceases to exist. Both Jim and Mike fall to the floor, Jim still grasping the receiver.
There is smoke, dust and pieces of furniture all around. The sound of sirens is even more prominent outside, and there is also gunfire now, as if a pitted battle was in progress right there on Constitution Avenue.
Jim raises his head from under the desk, to see Mike laying on the floor, passed out.
At the same time, someone kicks in the office door. The grimy, mangled figure of a man in jeans and a wife-beater steps in, a pistol in hand.
Cop: "NYPD. You better come with me right now if you want to stay alive."
Jim stares at him in blank incomprehension. He's still holding the phone.
Jim: "NYPD...McClane?"
The police officer walks to him and grabs the phone, puts the receiver on his ear.
"Please hold for the President of the United States", says a female voice on the open line.
McClane: "Sorry, honey, I'm pretty busy right now. Tell him I'll call him right back, OK?"
As another explosion shakes the building, John McClane puts the receiver down and grabs Jim by the elbow.
McClane: "Come on Jim, let's go. You and me, we got some work to do."
[filler]