AHC: Have three "Romes" claim to be the Third Rome.

[Coyote Knight]

This came out of a recent discussion with a few friends. We were talking about Russia and the Ottomans claiming to be the "Third Rome" for various reasons. I eventually got to wondering about how someone could get serious claims to being the "Third Rome". So the challenge is the following:

Have Russia be recognized as the Third Rome by Christianity, have the Ottomans eventually convince others that they are the Third and Islamic Rome (The first being pagan, and the second being Christian), and for serious bonus points and internet cookies, have the Umayyads or Moors/Almoravids take the bulk of western Europe (including Italy and Rome) and proclaim themselves the "new and true" Rome.

Three Empires, three Romes. Go.

 

[Falecius]

Russia obviously began the whole "Third Rome" thing after Constantinople fell. Any Moor/Umayyad takeover of Italy would happen centuries earlier and utterly butterfly away any recognizable Russia or Ottoman Empire of any shape or form.
Moreover, if most of Western Europe is Muslim dominate, I am not sure who and why exactly is supposed to give a shit about the legacy of Rome at all.

 

[katchen]

One way Russia could press it's claim to be the Third Rome would be for Russia to take Constantinople from the Ottomans and move Russia's capital to Constantinple. The Tsar (or Tsarina---Catherine the Great started the move to conquer Istanbul/Constantinople) could then establish control over virtually the entire Eastern Orthodox Church by being able to appoint the Patriarch of Constantinople, make Konstantinpol (though Catherine simply wanted to call the city Tsargrad) the capital of the Russian Empire and take the title Autokratos or Autokrata (the Greek equivalent of Augustus, I believe).
Which may help to explain to a large extent why the rest of Europe was so violently opposed to Russia getting Constantinople even if the British could control Russian access to the Mediteranean Sea by colonizing the Agean Islands.
And interestingly, how the meme of Russia as the Evil Roman Empire of the Antichrist may have spread from Orthodox Jews living in Russia to Dispensationalist Christians in the UK and the United States during Tsarist times, long before Communism in Russia was ever thought of. Because during the 19th Century, many Russian Jews thought of the Russian Tsars as the prophesied last days evil Roman Emperor Armilus" (Romulus). " Moreover, a fascinating
eschatological document that originates from the circle of the Gerer Rebbe (possibly
composed by either the second Gerer Rebbe, Juda Arie Leib Alter (1847–1905) or,
more likely, by his grandfather Isaac Meir Alter himself), reveals that the expansion
and future defeat of the Russian Empire was interpreted in apocalyptical terms, as a
rise and fall of the demonic power. The Emperor, Alexander II, was perceived as an
incarnation of the Devil.35 Supporting the Tsarist regime was, therefore, simulta-
neously seen as an alliance with the Devil."East European Jewish Affairs
Vol. 39, No. 2, August 2009, 153–166
A rabbi-informer and the Hasidim of B edzin. Dimensions of ̨

Hasidic politics
Marcin Wodzin ski* ́

Department of Jewish Studies, University of Wroclaw, Poland
MarcinWodzi[nacute]ski
0
200000August 2009
39
2009 & Francis
Original Article
1350-1674 Francis
East European Jewish
10.1080/13501670903016191
FEEJ_A_401792.sgm Affairs
Taylor and (print)/1743-971X (online)
wodzinsk@uni.wroc.pl
Downloaded By: [Wodziski, Marcin] At: 16:45 23 July 2009

See Zvi Mark, “Eyn ben david”. I am grateful to Zvi Mark for drawing my attention to this
35.
text and delivering other sources used in this section.

 

[Krases]

Hmm, I wonder what the Russians would have done to rebuild Constantinople after conquering it.

 

[katchen]

Who says they would need to tear it down? Just clean the whitewash off Hagia Sophia and reconsecrate it as a basilica and have the Tsar move into Topkapi Palace. And clear out all the Turks and replace them with Russians and Bulgarians.

 

[Coyote Knight]

Russia obviously began the whole "Third Rome" thing after Constantinople fell. Any Moor/Umayyad takeover of Italy would happen centuries earlier and utterly butterfly away any recognizable Russia or Ottoman Empire of any shape or form.
Moreover, if most of Western Europe is Muslim dominate, I am not sure who and why exactly is supposed to give a shit about the legacy of Rome at all.

It's called a challenge for a reason.

One way Russia could press it's claim to be the Third Rome would be for Russia to take Constantinople from the Ottomans and move Russia's capital to Constantinple. The Tsar (or Tsarina---Catherine the Great started the move to conquer Istanbul/Constantinople) could then establish control over virtually the entire Eastern Orthodox Church by being able to appoint the Patriarch of Constantinople, make Konstantinpol (though Catherine simply wanted to call the city Tsargrad) the capital of the Russian Empire and take the title Autokratos or Autokrata (the Greek equivalent of Augustus, I believe).
Which may help to explain to a large extent why the rest of Europe was so violently opposed to Russia getting Constantinople even if the British could control Russian access to the Mediteranean Sea by colonizing the Agean Islands.
And interestingly, how the meme of Russia as the Evil Roman Empire of the Antichrist may have spread from Orthodox Jews living in Russia to Dispensationalist Christians in the UK and the United States during Tsarist times, long before Communism in Russia was ever thought of. Because during the 19th Century, many Russian Jews thought of the Russian Tsars as the prophesied last days evil Roman Emperor Armilus" (Romulus). " Moreover, a fascinating
eschatological document that originates from the circle of the Gerer Rebbe (possibly
composed by either the second Gerer Rebbe, Juda Arie Leib Alter (1847–1905) or,
more likely, by his grandfather Isaac Meir Alter himself), reveals that the expansion
and future defeat of the Russian Empire was interpreted in apocalyptical terms, as a
rise and fall of the demonic power. The Emperor, Alexander II, was perceived as an
incarnation of the Devil.35 Supporting the Tsarist regime was, therefore, simulta-
neously seen as an alliance with the Devil."East European Jewish Affairs
Vol. 39, No. 2, August 2009, 153–166
A rabbi-informer and the Hasidim of B edzin. Dimensions of ̨

Hasidic politics
Marcin Wodzin ski* ́

Department of Jewish Studies, University of Wroclaw, Poland
MarcinWodzi[nacute]ski
0
200000August 2009
39
2009 & Francis
Original Article
1350-1674 Francis
East European Jewish
10.1080/13501670903016191
FEEJ_A_401792.sgm Affairs
Taylor and (print)/1743-971X (online)
wodzinsk@uni.wroc.pl
Downloaded By: [Wodziski, Marcin] At: 16:45 23 July 2009

See Zvi Mark, “Eyn ben david”. I am grateful to Zvi Mark for drawing my attention to this
35.
text and delivering other sources used in this section.

Thanks for the info.

 

[funnyhat]

Does the Third Rome have to be Orthodox? If not, Avignon could perhaps make that claim given the right POD - it was the seat of the Papacy for awhile, after all.

 

[Coyote Knight]

Does the Third Rome have to be Orthodox? If not, Avignon could perhaps make that claim given the right POD - it was the seat of the Papacy for awhile, after all.

I figured it would be, because of Russia. However, depending on the POD, it could also be Avignon.