AHC: Have Hawaii dump the Union Jack

[overoceans]

Like it says on the tin. The state-flag could be changed for any number of reasons, eg. anti-British sentiment, pro-indigenous identity, multiculturalism, or what have you. What sociopolitical forces would have to come together to make it happen?

POD anywhere between 1900 and 2016. I chose that end cutoff in order to avoid leaning on so-called "cancel culture", statue-topplings etc.

 

[Alternator]

Pit the United States and Great Britain on opposite sides of a war - possible with WWI with a 1900 POD, with the US as a co-belligerent with the Central Powers rather than an ally - and have the Royal Navy attack the Hawaiian Islands during the ensuing conflict.

 

[overoceans]

Pit the United States and Great Britain on opposite sides of a war - possible with WWI with a 1900 POD, with the US as a co-belligerent with the Central Powers rather than an ally - and have the Royal Navy attack the Hawaiian Islands during the ensuing conflict.

Yeah, that would definitely do it. Though I should probably have specified that I was thinking more of PODs resulting from internal Hawaiian or US politics.

Granted, the "anti-British sentiment" suggested in my OP could indeed lead one to posit something on a world scale.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Maybe a movement to include more native-inspired designs on the flag, like the proposed New Zealander flags?

 

[stodge]

One day I'm going to have to put up a TL where the Kingdom survives and Hawaii is British to this day.

I could go down the old Ala Moana Road and have a pint at the "Dog and Tiki".

 

[overoceans]

Maybe a movement to include more native-inspired designs on the flag, like the proposed New Zealander flags?

Absolutely. But how would we get that to be a movement in Hawaiian politics?

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Britain gets the same reputation that Nazi Germany has in our timeline.

 

[Expat]

One thing that's saved the flag is that it has back-handed anti-imperialist associations, which I admit is a really strange thing to say about the Union Jack. But the coalition for retention includes a consensus that the coup that overthrew the British/Native cooperative was not legitimate, and so the symbol of the old order is retained in (fairly) subtle protest. A protest that a lot of other people can mostly ignore by just calling it a nod to history or heritage, or indeed (and quite ridiculously) an assertion of continuity.

One option is to make this form of protest less subtle, and to have protesters be more disruptive. This is pretty straightforward: just a protest movement that gains a little more traction after 1900 with the flag a prominent part of it. Have it crushed and have the powers-that-be delegitimize the symbol.

Another option is to remove its punch as a symbol of protest. Maybe the US government does more to placate the queen, resulting in a new understanding- indemnity and official recognition of (at least some) ceded lands for a start. The queen agrees to stand down, the government gives up the pretense that any of this has been legitimate up to now, holds new ceremonies, and a new, more legitimate territory is formed. This one without needing to assert continuity, and so the old flag is retired.

Honestly some combo of these two could go hand-in-hand, as a bit of an uprising might end up helping the queen's cause under the right circumstances.

 

[overoceans]

Don't wanna be too hyperbolic with Loving Expat's post, but that's some pretty interesting information.

Interesting how the protest aspect of the Hawaiian banner seems to parallel that of the Confederate flag, in terms of something retained to show that you wish an historical power struggle had gone the other way.

(Not that I would equate the Kingdom of Hawaii, morally speaking, with the CSA, just that they're both examples of a side that lost hanging onto their old flag.)

 

[Expat]

Don't wanna be too hyperbolic with Loving Expat's post, but that's some pretty interesting information.

Interesting how the protest aspect of the Hawaiian banner seems to parallel that of the Confederate flag, in terms of something retained to show that you wish an historical power struggle had gone the other way.

(Not that I would equate the Kingdom of Hawaii, morally speaking, with the CSA, just that they're both examples of a side that lost hanging onto their old flag.)

Lol yeah, you could've picked a lot of other flags to compare it to! Like sometimes in Texas you'll see the Alamo flag flown by people who romanticize independence. Might even look at Quebec? I don't specifically know the history of the flag, but those are certainly symbols of the French monarchy that they've adopted.

 

[overoceans]

@Expat

I'm Canadian, of partly French descent, but I just found out now that the Quebec flag is a variation on the old French royalist naval jack. Not officially adopted until the 1950s though. Not sure what its status was like before that, but I'm sure the fleur-de-lis was in wide use.

The Patriote Flag(a horizontal tricolour), flown by the Lower Canada rebels of 1837, is the more authentic flag of rebellion. 1837-style imagery was embraced in the 1960s by the FLQ and other militant groups, but mainstream nationalists like the PQ etc. seemed content with the old royalist imagery.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Yeah, that would definitely do it. Though I should probably have specified that I was thinking more of PODs resulting from internal Hawaiian or US politics.

Granted, the "anti-British sentiment" suggested in my OP could indeed lead one to posit something on a world scale.

Having president Garfield survive rather than get assassinated would be internal US politics that could eventually lead to the US fighting against the UK in the World Wars, although the POD would be in 1881 rather than post 1900. Or you could have internal US politics somehow prevent the annexation. Then Hawaii would become of colony of Britain (most likely), Japan, or Germany. If it becomes a British colony you could have the Union Jack become associated with colonial rule and ditched once decolonization gets going. With Japan or Germany, the Japanese or Germans would presumably get rid of it.

Maybe a movement to include more native-inspired designs on the flag, like the proposed New Zealander flags?

The issue I see with that is that the Hawaiian flag was adopted by Kamehameha. It wasn't forced on him, which makes it different from the Maori, who adopted flags without the Union Jack.

 

[elektro]

Don't wanna be too hyperbolic with Loving Expat's post, but that's some pretty interesting information.

Interesting how the protest aspect of the Hawaiian banner seems to parallel that of the Confederate flag, in terms of something retained to show that you wish an historical power struggle had gone the other way.

(Not that I would equate the Kingdom of Hawaii, morally speaking, with the CSA, just that they're both examples of a side that lost hanging onto their old flag.)

The official state flag is flown upside down in hawai'i if protesting the US annexation.

A better alternative is the kanaka maoli which is the common banner of the hawaiian sovereignity movement on the island today. Assuming a more successful movement from an earlier "2nd renaissance" and you could get the AHC by having this flag supplant the current state flag.

https://www.hawaiimagazine.com/content/uploads/2020/12/us-hi_1.gif

 

[Analytical Engine]

The issue I see with that is that the Hawaiian flag was adopted by Kamehameha. It wasn't forced on him, which makes it different from the Maori, who adopted flags without the Union Jack.

That's fair, but it isn't exactly a native symbol, is it? There would still be people protesting its inclusion as a legacy of colonialism.

Another thought I had was that the flag is replaced following the toppling of the Hawaiian monarchy. To show their commitment to MURICA, the Hawaiian republic removes the Union Flag from the canton, either replacing it with something more pro-American (or, at least, not overtly pro-British), or just extend the existing stripes across.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Like it says on the tin. The state-flag could be changed for any number of reasons, eg. anti-British sentiment, pro-indigenous identity, multiculturalism, or what have you. What sociopolitical forces would have to come together to make it happen?

POD anywhere between 1900 and 2016. I chose that end cutoff in order to avoid leaning on so-called "cancel culture", statue-topplings etc.

Following the post collapse of the warsaw pact and the peace dividend the US begin to draw down their armed forces during the 90s

This happens alongside a resurgence of Hawaiian nationalism (a popular 'brave heart' style film is made in the early 90s) and the events of the 1893 overthrow of the Queen is remembered in multiple events as well as TV show.

This situation is also made worse by several high profile crimes against Hawaiian peoples by US Armed forces personnel (shades of US Forces in Japan) which are dealt with rather poorly by the US Armed forces.

This is not helped by the revelation that a major drug ring that is busted was using USN and USAF aircraft to smuggle in drugs - at the time there was a major spike in drug related deaths among the poor Hawaiian peoples.

The USN and US Forces greatly reduces its 'foot print' in Hawaii and in 2001 an unofficial independence vote causes a stir when those that voted overwhelmingly voted for independence.

This movement gains popular support and Pres. Obama includes a referendum with a view to allowing for limited autonomy in 2008 in his Manifesto and delivers on it.

In 2009 a vote is taken and the people of Hawaii vote for 'independence' or more accurately self rule.

The USN Navy base and some other locations are retained ( a bit like the areas of Cyprus under UK control)

This Self rule goes into effect in 2013 and as part of that process a new flag is designed deliberately not making any reference to the old flag as this is a new beginning for the nation.

 

[overoceans]

@Cryhavoc101

Interesting scenario. But would people in Hawaii perceive crimes by American soldiers as being commited by a foreign army?

I know that most people obviously dislike rampaging meatheads smashing up their town and groping the local girls. But I also know, from pretty close-hand experience, that the humiliation is seriously compounded when the grunts in question are from the military of a more powerful foreign country.

Also, I do think it's gonna be a pretty tall order to get the presidential candidate of a major party to openly promise even so much as self-rule for a state(as opposed to a territory). Even when Sarah Palin was caught playing footsie with the Alaska Independence Movement in 2008, her supporters mostly opted to downplay the issue, not make it into a calling-card.

And any Hawaiian nationalist movement is almost certainly going to be viewed as a) left-wing, and b) multicultural, in a swarthy sort of a way. Probably not something a black Democrat sometimes nicknamed "Saddam Hussein Osama" is gonna wanna be associated with.

I do like the idea of a Braveheart style film stoking the flames of nationalism on the archipelago.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

@Cryhavoc101

Interesting scenario. But would people in Hawaii perceive crimes by American soldiers as being commited by a foreign army?

I know that most people obviously dislike rampaging meatheads smashing up their town and groping the local girls. But I also know, from pretty close-hand experience, that the humiliation is seriously compounded when the grunts in question are from the military of a more powerful foreign country.

Also, I do think it's gonna be a pretty tall order to get the presidential candidate of a major party to openly promise even so much as self-rule for a state(as opposed to a territory). Even when Sarah Palin was caught playing footsie with the Alaska Independence Movement in 2008, her supporters mostly opted to downplay the issue, not make it into a calling-card.

And any Hawaiian nationalist movement is almost certainly going to be viewed as a) left-wing, and b) multicultural, in a swarthy sort of a way. Probably not something a black Democrat sometimes nicknamed "Saddam Hussein Osama" is gonna wanna be associated with.

I do like the idea of a Braveheart style film stoking the flames of nationalism on the archipelago.

Like any ATL scenario its easy to pick holes in

But seeing the nationalism that has become more rampant since the end of the cold war around the world, while an unlikely scenario I see it as more likely than say Britain and the USA going to war or being on differing sides in a cold war type scenario or the British becoming Nazi's etc.

And wasn't Barry a Hawaiian?

 

[Workable Goblin]

And wasn't Barry a Hawaiian?

Barry was born in Hawai'i, yes (but Hawaiian, in Hawai'i, means being a native Hawaiian, and he wasn't that), but he lived in Illinois. Besides, you can be from Hawai'i (and even Hawaiian) and not really be down with the independence movement; even if it was more successful, there would surely be a large portion of the population that wouldn't be.

 

[overoceans]

@Workable Goblin

Just to clarify, when you say...

Hawaiian, in Hawai'i, means being a native Hawaiian

...do you mean that only Polynesians from Hawaii are called "Hawaiian"? And if so, what is the word used to denote someone from the state of Hawaii, regardless of ethnicity(like eg. a Texan is anyone from Texas)?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Barry was born in Hawai'i, yes (but Hawaiian, in Hawai'i, means being a native Hawaiian, and he wasn't that), but he lived in Illinois. Besides, you can be from Hawai'i (and even Hawaiian) and not really be down with the independence movement; even if it was more successful, there would surely be a large portion of the population that wouldn't be.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek

But he was the first Hawaiian President