AHC: Greek state in Ukraine

[Chercha]

The challenge is to have a lasting Greek state exist in at the very least a substantial part of Ukraine (so more than just Crimea and a couple of footholds elsewhere), the longer the better.

- Could greater colonisation take place in the hellenistic era and what role could the Bosporan kingdom play in all this?

- Could the Roman Empire help aforementioned kingdom expand in orded to secure another breadbasket for the Empire?

- Could the Byzantines establish themselves there at some point after the loss of Egypt for the same reason?

Syncretism is allowed, as long as there is a distinct Greek element linguistically, culturally and religously present. So Kievan Rus post-conversion doesn't count, but a Graeco-Scythian, Graeco-Gothic, Graeco-Slavic state etc. does. And.of course this hypothetical state must weather the various steppe invasions. They may be conquered, as long as the Greek element remains present.

 

[Byzantion]

The challenge is to have a lasting Greek state exist in at the very least a substantial part of Ukraine (so more than just Crimea and a couple of footholds elsewhere), the longer the better.

- Could greater colonisation take place in the hellenistic era and what role could the Bosporan kingdom play in all this?

- Could the Roman Empire help aforementioned kingdom expand in orded to secure another breadbasket for the Empire?

- Could the Byzantines establish themselves there at some point after the loss of Egypt for the same reason?

Syncretism is allowed, as long as there is a distinct Greek element linguistically, culturally and religously present. So Kievan Rus post-conversion doesn't count, but a Graeco-Scythian, Graeco-Gothic, Graeco-Slavic state etc. does. And.of course this hypothetical state must weather the various steppe invasions. They may be conquered, as long as the Greek element remains present.

Theoretically even today the Greeks are one of the recognized peoples of Ukraine with the the Greek Orthodox Church active. Question is if a Greek state would survive all the wars, famine, purge, plague, crisis and invasions. For example the hundreds of years of Mongol and Tartar invasions. A Crimea Greek state would be interesting or at least Greek lead. Maybe a Byzantine rump state successfully flourish on its own controlling trade routes. Maybe absorbing Italian elements withstand Venetian annexation rather becomes an equal to Italian City states. Maybe even Gothic invasion is repelled or Goths also being submitted. A Greek state in Ukraine has to be powerful l, good organized and able to ally itself with other ethnic groups, maybe Greekify them to some extent.

 

[Clandango]

You may need to have them be Muslim and with some close ties to Tartars or such. As basically the whole of the shores got repopulated by slave raids, and well into the interior, them being Muslim would be their best chance, though if they were the ones with a majority in Crimea they would be able to control that trade and perhaps arrange things differently.

 

[Skallagrim]

I know, I've posted it before, but it's applicable with surprising frequency.

Let's face it: Alexander was the kind of guy who would have eventually launched an expedition in that direction, too (if he'd lived long enough). That gives you a great premise for a Hellenistic successor state in that region. Presumably of the Graeco-Scythian variety. Iit would initially be centred on the Crimean penisula and the ontic shores, but if it adopts a nice flexible cavalry tradition, it will be able to become the "Ukraine" equivalent of the ATL.

Can it survive? Sure. Can it survive in a recognisably "Greek"(-ish) form? That's more dubious. Lots of migration to (and through) the region. The best bet would be a combination of Greek identity being tied to prestige (so that newcomers, even invaders, tend to adopt it for their own purposes) and periodic "re-seeding" of the area by actual Greek speakers. (For instance: after an ATL conquest of Anatolia, have a lot of Anatolian Greeks migrate to the other side of the Black Sea.)

 

[The Militant Doberman]

The challenge is to have a lasting Greek state exist in at the very least a substantial part of Ukraine... Syncretism is allowed, as long as there is a distinct Greek element linguistically, culturally and religously present. So Kievan Rus post-conversion doesn't count, but a Graeco-Scythian... state etc. does.

OTL already fulfilled your challenge

Gelonians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bilsk (Bielska) in detail of map "Sarmatia et Scythia, Russia et Tartaria Europaea", Philipp Clüver, reprinted 1697.

The Gelonians (or Geloni), also known as Helonians (or Heloni), are mentioned as a nation in northwestern Scythia by Herodotus.[1]Herodotus states that they were originally Hellenes who settled among the Budinoi, and that they are bilingual in Greek and the Scythian language.[2]

Their capital was called Gelonos or Helonos, originally a Greek market town. In his account of Scythia, Herodotus writes that the Gelonii were formerly Greeks, having settled away from the coastal emporia among the Budini, where they "use a tongue partly Scythian and partly Greek":[3]

"The Budini for their part, being a large and numerous nation, is all mightily blue-eyed and ruddy. And a city among them has been built, a wooden city, and the name of the city is Gelonus. Of its wall then in size each side is of thirty stades and high and all wooden. And their homes are wooden and their shrines. For indeed there is in the very place Greek gods’ shrines adorned in the Greek way with statues, altars and wooden shrines and for triennial Dionysus festivals in honour of Dionysus...

The fortified settlement of Gelonus was reached by the Persian army of Darius in his assault on Scythia during the 5th century BC, and burned to the ground, the Budini having abandoned it in their flight before the Persian advance. Recent digs at Bilsk in Ukraine's Poltava Oblast have uncovered a vast city identified by the Kharkiv archaeologist Boris Shramko as the Scythian capital Gelonus.[4]

 

[Chercha]

OTL already fulfilled your challenge

Gelonians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A century or two too early to last, but that is the kind of thing I was looking for.

Let's face it: Alexander was the kind of guy who would have eventually launched an expedition in that direction, too (if he'd lived long enough). That gives you a great premise for a Hellenistic successor state in that region. Presumably of the Graeco-Scythian variety. Iit would initially be centred on the Crimean penisula and the ontic shores, but if it adopts a nice flexible cavalry tradition, it will be able to become the "Ukraine" equivalent of the ATL.

Alright, let's see if I can make something from this. Alexander does live longer and, after deciding he can leave India for later and the deserts of Arabia aren't worth it, embarks on the Black Sea circuit and conquers all the lands surrounding the Euxine. People from all over Macedon go to these new lands, something which continues under Alexander IV. At some point, people notice that sweet, sweet chernozem, which attracts yet more people ( I reckon a farmer-colonist would rather go to flat, fertile Scythia than hilly Anatolia or Persia). The Scythian cavalry tradition is wedded to the Greek infantry tradition, which leaves us with an early version of the Crimean Khanate: a polity supported by whomever holds Greece, Thrace and/or Anatolia which exports grain and slaves to the rest of the hellenistic world. Who knows, enterprising traders could make their way along the same routes the vikings would one day take, in search of amber and other valuables around the Baltic. Perhaps the Argeads hold strong in Greece and Anatolia, perhaps various smaller states fight over hegemony or perhaps Rome ends up taking it all like IOTL.

In any case, with Scythia plugged into the wider trade network of the Mediterranean and beyond, people will keep on coming to those shores. If we murder all butterflies, there shouldn't be any major upheaval in the region until six centuries after Alexander when the Huns arrive, enough for this state to have planted its roots firmly. Does this soind halfway plausible?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Part of the problem is that the open steppes, which is what most of the Ukraine is, are REALLY hard to defend against horse archers. At least until you have gunpowder.

Crimea is one thing - you can defend a peninsula - but more than that? I doubt it.

 

[Chercha]

Part of the problem is that the open steppes, which is what most of the Ukraine is, are REALLY hard to defend against horse archers. At least until you have gunpowder.

Crimea is one thing - you can defend a peninsula - but more than that? I doubt it.

I suppose the question is whether a state of horse archers - supported by a sedentary agricultural population - can hold off and possibly absorb other horse archers coming from the east.