With a POD of no earlier than around 1700, have Greece own a portion of southern Italy, i.e. Magna Graecia, as a fully integrated part of the country. Bonus points if Greece ends up with Naples and/or Sicily.
AHC: Greek Southern Italy, post-1700 POD
- Thread starter Teutoberg Forest
- Start date
Short of the Ottomans Defeating the greeks so badly they all run to Sicily and the boot, no a chance
Have some wild near-ASB shit happen where the Sicilians take on a more Greek-friendly identity for nationalistic fervor.
It could result in them being more inclined, maybe not. This is a difficult one and I have no idea.
It could result in them being more inclined, maybe not. This is a difficult one and I have no idea.
The only way I can see it happening is if the Ottomans do something so horrible to the Greeks that hundreds of thousands of them flee to Naples and Sicily. Even so, I doubt they could make up the majority of the population there.
Or the Ottomans Sucessfully conquered and hold the Magnae Graecia and hold it and send greeks them as all italians fly north
Oh, I forgot about that. And given Mehmed was the only Ottoman sultan who was really invested in the whole "Kayser-i Rûm" thing...
Siege of Belgrade >>>> Siege of Constantinople
Change my mind
And unlike Constantinople Mehmed didn't outnumber the defenders ten times over, and was a gigachad who got in the thick of the fighting that time. Whereas he did eff all in the Constantinople siege.
I wish Mehmed had lived long enough and succeeded more so he could have seized some sweet Italian lands.
Completely agreed. I can't see it happen short of a Greek refugee crisis almost immediately after the POD, and I can't see that happening unless the Ottoman sultans ex. turn to the Greeks as a political counterweight to the janissaries and lose, badly, to the point the janissaries run the state outright. Let's roll with that scenario a bit to speculate on how to swing it:
You get the severe banditry of the pre-Tanzimat era in the Balkans decades earlier and far more brutal/unrestricted, and this causes an extreme refugee crisis as the Greeks, in particular, are targeted. The only place willing to accept the Greeks is Naples. Given a few decades, the Greeks are an influential and significant minority group in Naples and actually take a religious spin on their situation where they come to view themselves as modern-day Jews, exiled from their home. The religious revival among the Greek community and high degree of intermarriage with the locals results in the Greek population of Southern Italy growing disproportionately in both demographics, influence, and even prestige as the religious fervor of the Greeks(and their continued self-referencing as Romans) attracts many to their schools and churches. In particular, after the dissolution of the Patriarchate of Constantinople at the hands of the rebellious janissaries, the Neapolitan Greeks' religious revival included a soft reconciliation with Rome which made the Papacy an enthusiastic supporter of the refugees.
The War of Spanish Succession almost nixed the entire process but the Austrians proved to be hands-off towards Naples and allowed local politics to develop with little interference from Vienna. The Roman(Greek) faction in Naples eventually solidifies as a political block made up of Greek refugees, religious syncretists, Roman romanticists, the fervently religious advocating for war against the Ottoman Empire in the name of Christianity, and Neapolitan merchants eager to expand into the markets of the Aegean. This faction actually earned support from the House of Hapsburg due to their extreme loathing of the Ottoman Empire and its potential to help in Hapsburg's ambitions in the Balkans over time. Their support was critical in successfully repelling a Spanish invasion of Southern Italy during the War of Polish Succession, keeping Naples in the Hapsburg sphere of influence.
The continued expansion of the Roman Faction in Naples continued during this time with Austria's blessing. The first opportunity where their influence was truly felt was in the Russo-Turkish War of 1735-1739 where despite Austrian defeat, the Neapolitan navy proved itself admirably and even managed to capture the Ionian Islands of Western Greece, most notably, Corfu, and even threatened Crete. Despite large reversals of fortune in the Balkans, the Hapsburgs' performance at sea resulted in further support for the Roman faction. Instead of the passive approval of the past, the Austrians took a proactive role in elevating the Roman Faction which led to a few critical points of no return for the demographic makeup of Naples:
* Accepting refugees from the Ottoman Empire, primarily Greek refugees(and even some Slavs and Albanians) became uncontested, the official policy of the Kingdom of Naples
* Propagation of 'Roman Schools' throughout much of Naples
* The Hellenification of the Neapolitan Navy, Naples' most important military asset
Between the emigration of Greeks to Naples, mixed marriages being quite normal, the pushing of 'Roman' identity as a shared Greek-Neapolitan legacy reforged in the modern-day that proved wildly popular throughout Southern Italy, and a very gradual Hellenification of the state apparatus, the ball had shifted conclusively in favor of the Greek Faction for the following century as they took Naples from glory to glory and slowly Hellenified southern Italy in their image.
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I think that's enough bullet points and skimming to get what I'm imagining to make something like this remotely possible. Emphasis on skimming and glossing over. I'm specifically ignoring any nativist elements and letting the power of the Hapsburg monarchy's support for this faction be enough to believably sell the idea that they manage to hold on to power, as well as being popular with the common man of Southern Italy due to their push for 'Roman' identity, military success, and anti-Muslim ideology(North African piracy is still a serious issue at this point).
It isn't hard to imagine that this Kingdom of Naples leading the charge and serving as the embryo for a future Greek state that begins on the other side of the Straights of Otranto. Plenty of low-hanging fruit against the Ottoman Empire to exploit in this period with lands to seize to legitimize the Roman Faction such as conquests in Greece and the Aegean, usurping Tunisia, etc.
@EMT
Wouldn't some of the Ottoman Greeks be bringing over a fair amount of wealth and even a significant portion of merchant marine forces?
They along with the Armenians formed a fairly significant bloc of wealthy people in the Ottoman Empire. Basically being their equivalent of "Jews".
Wouldn't some of the Ottoman Greeks be bringing over a fair amount of wealth and even a significant portion of merchant marine forces?
They along with the Armenians formed a fairly significant bloc of wealthy people in the Ottoman Empire. Basically being their equivalent of "Jews".
That's what I'm banking on. The Janissaries had historically little influence in the Ottoman navy compared to the army and I'd expect that to hold true in the face of a coup ran by the janissaries; either directly or indirectly weakening the Ottoman navy severely and losing a good chunk of the merchant marine that connected Constantinople to the Levant. Perfect opportunity for a clapback by a refugee community known for their maritime tradition, hosted by a state who's historically had a non-insignificant naval tradition of their own. It's why I find it easy to imagine to see extensive Greek smuggling networks that help to keep the Greeks of Southern Italy rich in the face of their expulsion leading to a surprisingly powerful navy being able to take big Ws off of a weakened Ottoman navy.
No Italian unification of the peninsula is interesting in its own right. Especially given that Italian identity didn't really exist, so the strong Hellenization of the south means the identity formed would be opposed to what someone like Garibaldi was selling.
Rather than an Aegean focus with bits of the eastern Med closer to Syria the Greco-Neapolitan state is focused on the central and eastern Mediterranean, most likely. If they're a naval focused power.
Kinda reminds me of my crack focus on a Byzantine rump centered on Sicily, except not Byzantine.
All this would be while banditry is absolutely rampant in the Balkans I'm guessing. OTL was bad enough and the Ottomans never really stamped it out, here it could arguably be worse.
Have Greece be more successful in its revolution by having the various factions agree to decide on the fate of the nation after the war is won; the Greeks thus do much better, especially economically.
The successes of the Greek, however, serve as a stark reminder to reactionary governments of the might of ideals; be it because A-H is more careful or because luck in imprisoning/killing key figures, there's no Italian unification, leaving Two Sicilies as it was OTL.
While a stronger Greece will set its sights on the Ottomans, ready to pounce, I can see it having a slightly stringer 'Byzantine' tilt and eventually add parts of Apulia, Calabria and Lucania to its claims.
The successes of the Greek, however, serve as a stark reminder to reactionary governments of the might of ideals; be it because A-H is more careful or because luck in imprisoning/killing key figures, there's no Italian unification, leaving Two Sicilies as it was OTL.
While a stronger Greece will set its sights on the Ottomans, ready to pounce, I can see it having a slightly stringer 'Byzantine' tilt and eventually add parts of Apulia, Calabria and Lucania to its claims.