AHC: further expanding Balts
- Thread starter Berserker
- Start date
If the Vistula Veneti merged with the Proto-Balts during the Balto-Slavic differentiation, the Proto-Slavs will just be confined in the Ukraine area and the languages/dialects in OTL Poland will be classified as South-Baltic rather than West Slavic.
This including the Scandinavian countries, such as Sweden and Finland in the Baltic states?
No, Balts (which maybe is less confusing than baltic people) are intended the ones in the following map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
Looking at the map if somehow the germanization of Prussians were stopped, that would go a long way towards the doubling up. With russian states being trashed by the Mongols there could be a window of opportunity if the balts were under a united polity. About a PoD maybe a unification of the baltic tribes inhabitating Prussia, before Polish and German pressure is too high? that would probably bring an earlier christianization which would help avoid intervention by their christian neighbours.
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The problem was that Prussians applied birth control to avoid overpopulation of their land. Slavic people, especially after adopting christianity, didn't, so they became steadily more and more numerous and put the demographic pressure on their baltic neighbours. My proposition is: make St. Adalbert/Vojtech/Wojciech successful. In OTL he was sent to Prussia on request of some Pomesanian lord who wanted to promote christiniaty in hope to strenghten his rule. The people refused the missionary and expelled him threatening to kill him if he dares to return. Vojtech returned nevertheless and was killed. What if Vojtech returns to Poland but settles nearby and covertly teaches Prussian nobles? After few years they would try to overrule the people and the pagan priests with backing and funding of Polish king and the christianity would start to catch. Then in next two generations they would abandon the practices of birth regulation and expand into neighbour tribes land. The Polish history goes roughly like in OTL until the pagan reaction and Bretislav raid. Than the christian Prussian Ruler [insert any name] would offer a protection to christian Masovians and Pomeranians and to refugees from Greater Poland. Than he would have a manpower to further expand to Prussian lands and he would send envoys to Emperor for support. Kasimir would return to a greatly diminished domain and the new principality of Prussia (and later a kingdom) would emerge. If Prussians manage to avoid fragmentation and establish and empire similar to OTL Lithuanian one but encompassing much larger proportion of baltic people, the subjugated slavic people would Prussianize eventually.
in what time period acurred this differentiation? I am not familiar with it
that would be an ideale situation. but what kind of Prussia would it be? would the Balts lean towards the cultural west or the east?
would paganism die out or would it survive longer, or shorter?
Or have the Wends unite with the Pomeranians and the Polans like I did in one of my scenarios and Silesia and Krakow remain Bohemian.
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some kind of tribe unification would probably be the way to go.
An idea would be the early swedish vikings pressuring them more severely, either conquering them or close to, forcing them to join forces (and if being conquered assimilating the conquerers, just as with the Kievan Rus).
This would leave a strengthed unity between the tribes which in turn would make them less prone to infight, and being able to make a unified front against their later conquerers-wannabes. Maybe even let them trade with the Kievan Rus (neighbours) and absorb their Orthodox faith
An idea would be the early swedish vikings pressuring them more severely, either conquering them or close to, forcing them to join forces (and if being conquered assimilating the conquerers, just as with the Kievan Rus).
This would leave a strengthed unity between the tribes which in turn would make them less prone to infight, and being able to make a unified front against their later conquerers-wannabes. Maybe even let them trade with the Kievan Rus (neighbours) and absorb their Orthodox faith
I've seen suggestions that the Balts were more widespread at one point, with lands across some parts of what later became northern Russia, but that the tribes there were subsequently displaced or assimilated by [more numerous] Slavs expanding from areas to the south of that belt: Apparently there's evidence of this in the names of some Russian rivers ...
When Veneti became slavified Slavs and Balts already were separate at least according most of hypotheses.
Where you get this from? I am interested because I never have met this before.
He was successful. It seems he was seeking not to promote christianity, but a martyrdom.
http://www.technologijos.lt/upload/...ogija/S-11989/nuotrauka-25293/kalba-zemel.jpg .
The blue line marks territory where Baltic hydronims are abundant. In the territory between the blue and red lines there are few of them.
To avoid Slavic migration upstream Dnieper river around the 5th century.
Around the time Christianity started.in what time period acurred this differentiation? I am not familiar with it
You could reverse christianization, with the Balts adopting it way earlier than neighbouring Slavs. That way you might see western knights helping the Balts in their crusades against heathen Slavs further inland.
But already avoiding the attacks on the Baltic peoples would preserve the Prussians as an ethnicity and increase the population of all Baltic peoples.
But already avoiding the attacks on the Baltic peoples would preserve the Prussians as an ethnicity and increase the population of all Baltic peoples.
More successful Lithuania?
How about, more successful Grand Duchy of Lithuania managing to defend/annex Prussia and induce appreciable numbers of their Slavic speaking Belorussian subjects to adopt Lithuanian as prestige language?
How about, more successful Grand Duchy of Lithuania managing to defend/annex Prussia and induce appreciable numbers of their Slavic speaking Belorussian subjects to adopt Lithuanian as prestige language?
The Problem is the Slavs are exposed to Christianization due to them absorbing the Vistula Veneti if the Vistula Veneti merged with the Balts the Balts will have a better future compared to Slavs ITTL.
I think at the time when the Roman Empire conquered Gaul the Slavs and the Balts are starting to Split completely.
Lithuania was a LOT more than twice the siize of the current baltics. So otl counts if i understand you. If you want something twice the size of the grand duchy, have fun.