How to make interwar Poland fascist, so it attacks Germany before Hitler comes to power, or at least soon after (so German army still counts about 100k troops and doesn't stand a chance)? And what would be result of such action? I don't think that GB or France would stand in Germany defense in such case and USRR was in the middle of internal turmoil started by Stalin.
AHC: Fascist Poland
- Thread starter Mixxer5
- Start date
If the Sanacja persists long enough and its domination leads to sufficient radicalization of the opposition, actual fascists might become strong enough to assume control once it falls. But I don't think it can be done in time for 1933. Perhaps something more like 1950?
Not every country which isn't a flawless democracy is a right wing dictatorship (not to mention a fascist one). In Poland's case the regime was effectively more or less centrist insofar as it can be described in such terms at all. It was united more by Piłsudski/the fact of being in power then any particular ideology.
Well, I'm from Poland, so I know something about Sanation. It was more like authoritarianism/ army rule rather than fascist (closest to Fascism and power were National Democrats, but still far from there).
How is USRR going to attack if:
a) Stalin's Great Purge was in quite advanced phase and Red Army lacked competent officers because they were mostly dead?
b) Stalin was preparing for war in 40s, not 30s. Otl Red Army had troubles (not significant but still) occupying eastern Poland even having huge numerical advantage. And most of polish army was occupied in the west, while in '33 (or earlier) it won't be necessary.
I'm not asking for Poland militarizing in months and occupying whole Germany- but it's eastern territories would be fine (modern borders).
EDIT:
I'm pretty sure that even if war is somehow stalled until then, Soviets will be ready as hell to get to Rhein or further.
How is USRR going to attack if:
a) Stalin's Great Purge was in quite advanced phase and Red Army lacked competent officers because they were mostly dead?
b) Stalin was preparing for war in 40s, not 30s. Otl Red Army had troubles (not significant but still) occupying eastern Poland even having huge numerical advantage. And most of polish army was occupied in the west, while in '33 (or earlier) it won't be necessary.
I'm not asking for Poland militarizing in months and occupying whole Germany- but it's eastern territories would be fine (modern borders).
EDIT:
I'm pretty sure that even if war is somehow stalled until then, Soviets will be ready as hell to get to Rhein or further.
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I'm not agree with your statement, as until 1930 the elections were still democratic and only this year the elections were partially rigged by arbitraries arrestations of opposition leaders.
Also, you lack a real dictator as Pilsudski died in 1935 and he wasn't really replaced by a strong man.
And I'm not sure if you can considered the people supporting Pilsudski as right-wing, as their main opposition was the National Democracy who was really a right-wing and nationalist political movement. It seems more that this movement consider himself as "above the parties" and with supporters from the left and the right in the same time...
Then again the Reichwehr was only a light armed army which lack everything above light artillery, and militia will be armed with only with light infantry weapons. You add to it that the service in the Reichwehr was long, 8 years at the minimum, so the Germans will lacked properly trained reserves.
Until 1936, and probably 1938 with a French intervention, the Germans weren't in position to resist a polish invasion.
And if the Poles attacked after 1933, their is no possibility for a Soviet intervention as they will see it as the destruction of their arch-enemy which was the Nazi in 1933 and a good possibility for a new german revolution under the KPD direction.
International politics is not as game of Europa Universalis or Heart of Iron where you backstabbed your neighbour when its army is fighting on a second front. Every attack of the SU outside of its borders in the thirties will see an alliance of severals countries against them as at least Roumania, Hungary, Austria and Italy were not very fond of the Communists. So you will see the Red Army fighting at least Poland and Hungary and probably very quickly severals others.
And I'm not sure Staline will accept any of his generals gaining any form of militay glory as he had probably decided to purge all of them. And the problem of the Soviet Army was not only the generals but as the campaign of 1941 show it, Ivan the soldier had no real will to fight and die for the Soviet regim.
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Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Mixxer is right. The Polish government had the point of view to get German territories up to the Elbe river, at least the areas east of the Oder-Neiße line. Several government members and high officials as well as closely related press were partly saying: "Without Königsberg Poland cannot survive!" And similar things.
In the end of 1932, beginning of 1933 Poland planned an attack on Germany. So when two diplomatic posts were to be remanned, the Polish consul in Königsberg and the German military attché in Warsaw, the Polish ambassador said, that would be senseless, as they would be at war soon. Also the US president was contacted and told, Poland would attack Germany soon. It did not come so far, as the French government, who was asked twice, refused to attack.
Thus there was little to change to get Poland attacking Germany.
In the end of 1932, beginning of 1933 Poland planned an attack on Germany. So when two diplomatic posts were to be remanned, the Polish consul in Königsberg and the German military attché in Warsaw, the Polish ambassador said, that would be senseless, as they would be at war soon. Also the US president was contacted and told, Poland would attack Germany soon. It did not come so far, as the French government, who was asked twice, refused to attack.
Thus there was little to change to get Poland attacking Germany.
Of course, Poland was only a little less evil and aggressive then the Nazis themselves.
But do you have a source for the claim that it intended to annex half of Germany? I'd like to see it.As I said, not really fascist, though the nature of the coalition with its strange mix of solidarism and nationalism and it's prosecution/banning of left-wing parties would make the 'right-' label valid IMO.
Only 'partially rigged' isn't much of an excuse.
Dictatorships don't necessarily require a strong man figure.
Yet far more right than left.
To be honest, what I want to accomplish is simply Polish aggression on Germany before it's able to "nazify" itself, combined with polonization (doesn't have to be aggressive or nazi like), serious weakening of Germany (preferably splitting it to smaller realms, but I guess it's too much- maybe restoration of Kaiser than?), and avoiding WWII- at least in it's otl shape. If that's going to be accomplished by National Democrats, Sanacja, fascists or ultra-catholic political party (well- why not?), it's fine. Although I was most interested in reversing roles between east and west.
You're going to need to remove Beck as Foreign Minister for one thing, the man with a huge grudge against the French who aspired to ensure closer relations with Germany as a counter-weight against the Soviets and continued to aspire for this up until late 1938. That said it's likely that any PoD that keeps the Russo-Polish war is going to have the Poles seeing the Soviets as the main threat until the Germans actively declare their intention to attack them.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Of course, Poland was only a little less evil and aggressive then the Nazis themselves.
Yes, I have, but not here atm. It is no propaganda but fact.
To be honest I had no idea. If You could provide source, I'd be very grateful.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Here are some sources. I can't find more atm, so they are only examples.
1. Gazeta Gdansk, 9th of October 1925: "Poland must insist, that without Königsberg, without all of East Prussia it can't exist. We must demand in Locarno, that all of East Prussia is to be liquidated... If this isn't possible on a peaceful way, then a second Tannenberg will come."
Someone on this forum told me some time ago, that this was a right fringe newspaper. But it was indeed near to the government. A Pilsudski near newspaper I don't know this moment said, in a sense, that East Germany had to be annexed in a war, where "no prisoners are made" and "without any humanity". I had to look after the exact source. But that needs time I don't have just now. It shows nevertheless the intention of the Polish government in this time.
2. Roos, Polen und Europa, page 38: In October 1931 Marshall Pilsudski tells Hoover, "Poland had to invade Germany to clear the things once and forever". This was indeed an attempt to press the USA not to change the Versailles treaty, but still shows bad intentions towards Germany.
3. The quote I gave in my first post here is from: Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik, Series C, vol. I, Document 22. This was from February 17th 1933. At the same moment there were three attempts to convince the French to attack Germany. Sources for this: Historic Commission of the Polish Staff (Polish), Vol. 1, Part. 1, London 1951 and Stanislaw Mackiewicz, Beck's Policy (Pol.), Paris, 1946.
4. Some postcards:
Both are propaganda pictures of early 1939. Similar existed before.
1. Gazeta Gdansk, 9th of October 1925: "Poland must insist, that without Königsberg, without all of East Prussia it can't exist. We must demand in Locarno, that all of East Prussia is to be liquidated... If this isn't possible on a peaceful way, then a second Tannenberg will come."
Someone on this forum told me some time ago, that this was a right fringe newspaper. But it was indeed near to the government. A Pilsudski near newspaper I don't know this moment said, in a sense, that East Germany had to be annexed in a war, where "no prisoners are made" and "without any humanity". I had to look after the exact source. But that needs time I don't have just now. It shows nevertheless the intention of the Polish government in this time.
2. Roos, Polen und Europa, page 38: In October 1931 Marshall Pilsudski tells Hoover, "Poland had to invade Germany to clear the things once and forever". This was indeed an attempt to press the USA not to change the Versailles treaty, but still shows bad intentions towards Germany.
3. The quote I gave in my first post here is from: Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik, Series C, vol. I, Document 22. This was from February 17th 1933. At the same moment there were three attempts to convince the French to attack Germany. Sources for this: Historic Commission of the Polish Staff (Polish), Vol. 1, Part. 1, London 1951 and Stanislaw Mackiewicz, Beck's Policy (Pol.), Paris, 1946.
4. Some postcards:
Both are propaganda pictures of early 1939. Similar existed before.
Above are interesting, but that's nothing convincing. Postcards and propaganda rarely are presenting real plans of government, and Polish- Germany relations were very tense: both due to border disagreements and coal embargo (which pushed Poland into crisis). And as far as I know, otl there were no plans of attack (apart from Pilsudskis offer to France- which was an effect of Germany/ IIIrd Reich breaking Versailles treaty).
Since Mixxer has answered most of the points, I'll only ask about #1. Just like propaganda rarely reflects the actual aims of governments, newspapers supportive of them tend not to follow government policy in 100% of their publications. Since you assume that absolutely everything written there explicitly reflected government policy, I'd appreciate an explanation of what precisely was their nature of their relations to Piłsudski/the government of Poland (chose whichever is more appropriate)?
The italian fascism is born like that and is considered the first, if that isn't fascism then it never existed.