AHC: European Union prior to 1914
- Thread starter Hunter W.
- Start date
You mean the Zollverein? Well that was unrelated to any pan-European initiatives, and if I recall correctly, the idea of an European "union" only started to appear during the Interwar era.
The European Union as a political project ... that started in "earnest" in the interwar period.
Nevertheless, todays european union started post-war first and for all - unfortunatly - as an "economic" project, mainly to secure/monopolize/cartelize the iron/coal-industry between France, Germany, Luxemburg and Belgium. That with it there came also some ... political rapproachment, was merely a not planned for side effect, that could - and is - be used for propaganda.
Therefore the "Zollverein", maybe extended to the idea of "Middle-Europe" could have been a driver towards something like the EU.
Also, there was a "trend" toward "supranational" arrangements already at the end of the 19th century (Hague conferences, just as a starter).
Nevertheless, todays european union started post-war first and for all - unfortunatly - as an "economic" project, mainly to secure/monopolize/cartelize the iron/coal-industry between France, Germany, Luxemburg and Belgium. That with it there came also some ... political rapproachment, was merely a not planned for side effect, that could - and is - be used for propaganda.
Therefore the "Zollverein", maybe extended to the idea of "Middle-Europe" could have been a driver towards something like the EU.
Also, there was a "trend" toward "supranational" arrangements already at the end of the 19th century (Hague conferences, just as a starter).
Well... You could have a Zollverein where Germany so dominates Europe that all other countries have to march to her drum. Maybe. But that would be more like an expanded German Empire that took in most of Europe than an 'EU'.
To have an actual voluntary union by 1914, we need a MUCH earlier PoD. The big nations were too proud of their own history and cultural superiority to voluntarily give that up.
OTL's EU (starting with the Coal and Steel project), was in direct response to the rise of the USSR and the US as the world Superpowers, and the demotion of the various European (former Great Powers) to much reduced status.
To get that before 1914... Oy. I can't think of a non ASB PoD that isn't pre-modern (probably pre-1492).
To have an actual voluntary union by 1914, we need a MUCH earlier PoD. The big nations were too proud of their own history and cultural superiority to voluntarily give that up.
OTL's EU (starting with the Coal and Steel project), was in direct response to the rise of the USSR and the US as the world Superpowers, and the demotion of the various European (former Great Powers) to much reduced status.
To get that before 1914... Oy. I can't think of a non ASB PoD that isn't pre-modern (probably pre-1492).
That's not true. In fact in was pretty much the reverse: the CECA was founded in a large part because the German and French wanted to bind their nations in way that would make a war between the two impossible. Political rapprochement was the goal, not a side effect.
That said, I don't easily see how you could apply those circumstances to pre-1914. I mean it took 2 world wars, a horrific numbers of casualties and the Soviet in Berlin for it to change... Actually, perhaps that would work: you give all of Europe a common ennemy, a very menacing one. Then the countries have to go together or be destroyed.
Thomas1195
Banned
Only Russia qualifies. But the European allies must be ideologically similar to each other to make this union sustainable (e.g. a coalition of liberal republics and/or constitutional monarchies).
No way on God's green earth. 1848 was the Springtime of the Nations. It was all about particular nationalisms. It was just about the worst time in history to get a pan-European supranational body.
You can work all you want, and nothing will happen. It's not in the interest of ANY of the attendees, let alone all of them.
Thomas1195
Banned
I mean in this context, successful liberal republics could be natural allies against Russia. There would be a Union similar to both NATO and EEC (but not EU). This is viable because liberals were pro-free trade.
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I don't want to make another thread,but could you get a Franco-British -German alliance with all 3 nations as powerful,if not more so than they were in otl 1914?
What do you mean with "CECA" ?
I was referring to the "ECSE" or Montan-Union, as it's called in Germany.
That's what IMO started, what would become todays EU, via the Rome treaties etc., etc.
There’s the Roman Empire, or a reincarnation/successor that could be attempted with an alternate HRE or a resurgent Byzantium that reclaims the west or something else along the same vein.
There’s the Universal Monarchy of complete dynastic domination of something like a Bourbon/Habsburg Union.
There’s Napoleon’s continental system or possibly another revolutionary/republican re-ordering of Europe If the reactionaries are defeated.
There’s the Universal Monarchy of complete dynastic domination of something like a Bourbon/Habsburg Union.
There’s Napoleon’s continental system or possibly another revolutionary/republican re-ordering of Europe If the reactionaries are defeated.
Deleted member 97083
You mean Magna Germania and Sarmatia Occidentalis?Germany and Poland are excluded here, though!