AHC: European Israel

[KarneeKarnay]

Have a different WWI. The Jews has been allowed to buy land in the Jerusalem region since the end of WW1, by the British. Give the Ottomans a marginally better showing and have them retain control of the Lebanon, Syria and Palestine regions. The Jewish population would not be able to establish it'self as well as OTL if this were to happen.

Now what you need a nation in Europe to be Anti-Fascist. You can't use Russia, because the Communists were almost as Anti-Judaism is the Nazis. Post war Germany would be interesting, but I almost feel as if one of the Lowlands offering reading the writing on the wall and offering sanctuary to the Jews would be the best place to start. (Hitler will attack, it is only a matter of time, might as well antagonize the ****). Then post war the Jews are offered a stretch of land acting a buffer nation for the Dutch and establishing a true Jewish State.

That said, it doesn't feel very realistic. Jerusalem was the Homeland of the Jews. They all share a cultural bond due to this. Even if the allies did set this nation up in Germany, they probably wouldn't be as successful as OTL.

 

[The Cosmonaut Cat]

Have a different WWI. The Jews has been allowed to buy land in the Jerusalem region since the end of WW1, by the British. Give the Ottomans a marginally better showing and have them retain control of the Lebanon, Syria and Palestine regions. The Jewish population would not be able to establish it'self as well as OTL if this were to happen.

I thought Zionists were moving into the area even when it was under Ottoman rule?

 

[Deckhand]

What if Israel is considered a European country without changing its location?

It sort of already is by the locals on both sides.

 

[Tallil2long]

With zero chance of being accepted by the Jews. They knew perfectly well where Israel was and there is no chance they would risk being in middle of what might well have turned into a bunch of hostile German states near by ready to start Holocaust two, or at the very least that is how it would have looked to the Jews post WWII.

^
This. Jews didn't spend centuries saying "Next year, in Israel", just to change their minds. Indeed, not only is it utterly ASB, but possibly a bit condescending, to boot.

 

[Shiva]

^
This. Jews didn't spend centuries saying "Next year, in Israel", just to change their minds. Indeed, not only is it utterly ASB, but possibly a bit condescending, to boot.

Instead they've got a bunch of hostile Arab neighbors to deal with. It's such an improvement!

 

[Vexacus]

Instead they've got a bunch of hostile Arab neighbors to deal with. It's such an improvement!

Would not two hostile enemies be better than many hostile enemies?

 

[JudgeKing]

Would not two hostile enemies be better than many hostile enemies?

OTL Israel's many hostile neighbors were all hilariously incompetent when it came to waging war.

 

[Vexacus]

OTL Israel's many hostile neighbors were all hilariously incompetent when it came to waging war.

Good point

 

[President Farrakhan]

What other piece of earth is going to have the extremely powerful "destiny fulfilled" emotional appeal of The Holy Land? East Prussia? Crimea? C'mon. Those aren't the locations of an ancient Jewish kingdom. I agree that it's condescending. As if you could be like "hey, sorry about the near-extermination, have this random piece of land" and everything would be cool. Nah.

Ahmadinejad was floating this "European Israel" idea precisely because he knew it would be a really dickish way to troll Israel.

 

[Shiva]

What other piece of earth is going to have the extremely powerful "destiny fulfilled" emotional appeal of The Holy Land? East Prussia? Crimea? C'mon. Those aren't the locations of an ancient Jewish kingdom. I agree that it's condescending. As if you could be like "hey, sorry about the near-extermination, have this random piece of land" and everything would be cool. Nah.

Instead they went, "Here, have this bit of land you used to own two thousand years ago. What? Oh those Arab types already there, they don't matter. Just move in and they'll magically go away and your neighbors will be perfectly ok with it. What could possibly go wrong?"

 

[Tallil2long]

Instead they've got a bunch of hostile Arab neighbors to deal with. It's such an improvement!

I didn't say it was an improvement; just that it was a centuries-long ideal for many, many Jews and it doesn't simply go away because someone else thinks it a good idea.

 

[Tallil2long]

Instead they went, "Here, have this bit of land you used to own two thousand years ago. What? Oh those Arab types already there, they don't matter. Just move in and they'll magically go away and your neighbors will be perfectly ok with it. What could possibly go wrong?"

The Partition Plan didn't founder on the fact that it displaced a lot of Palestinians -- it didn't displace anyone. It didn't involve throwing anyone off their land. Indeed, the Israeli Declaration of Indepedendence guaranteed Palestinian Arabs their land, and full inclusion in the political process, IIRC. The displacement came a bit later, and the causes of it are more complex than many people assume.

Where it foundered was in assuming that the creation of a State in which Jews might achieve political authority would be acceptable in the Mideast. It wasn't.

That isn't to say that all Israel's ways have been right and good -- I certainly make no such claim.

 

[derDunkle]

Yiddish Policeman's Union

Anybody here familiar with The Yiddish Policemen's Union. It's a novel by Michael Chabon that takes place in a semi-independent Jewish state in Alaska, which was one of the options bandied about in the 40's.

 

[President Farrakhan]

Instead they went, "Here, have this bit of land you used to own two thousand years ago. What? Oh those Arab types already there, they don't matter. Just move in and they'll magically go away and your neighbors will be perfectly ok with it. What could possibly go wrong?"

>land you used to own two thousand years ago

Bruh. What part of "Holy Land" don't you understand lol. They knew the Arabs were there and they definitely knew they weren't going to magically go away.

 

[Tallil2long]

Well, before this thing moves completely into chat territory, let me post some questions.

If the Jews were offered a nice chunk of Eastern Europe -- would the natives there magically go away?
I don't see why they would be less devoted to their land and the expectation of self-determination than Palestinian Arabs.

Given the anti-Semitic history in the region, would a Jewish state be any less divisive there?
I don't see that it would.


Would it be more ethically acceptable to displace people off their land there (assuming for argument that the founding of Israel would inevitably result in displacements)?
If so, why?

 

[ramones1986]

I'm seeing more problems for Mizrahi (including Yemenite) and Sephardic Jews, especially their place in this alt-Israeli society, which is predominantly Ashkenazim.

 

[President Farrakhan]

If the Jews were offered a nice chunk of Eastern Europe -- would the natives there magically go away?

All these scenarios seem to operate on the assumption that the land is...........depopulated. Whether that's because of radiation, anthrax, or Generalplan Ost, it's just another reason to NOT want a Jewish nation there.

 

[Tallil2long]

All these scenarios seem to operate on the assumption that the land is...........depopulated. Whether that's because of radiation, anthrax, or Generalplan Ost, it's just another reason to NOT want a Jewish nation there.

I agree completely. The casual assumption that the locals have conveniently died or been "cleansed" troubles me as much as the casual assumption that dumping the Jews there is desirable.

 

[Shiva]

Well, before this thing moves completely into chat territory, let me post some questions.

If the Jews were offered a nice chunk of Eastern Europe -- would the natives there magically go away?
I don't see why they would be less devoted to their land and the expectation of self-determination than Palestinian Arabs.

Given the anti-Semitic history in the region, would a Jewish state be any less divisive there?
I don't see that it would.


Would it be more ethically acceptable to displace people off their land there (assuming for argument that the founding of Israel would inevitably result in displacements)?
If so, why?

I wasn't talking about 'Eastern Europe' I was talking about taking a piece of Germany, you know? That country that actually did the Holocaust rather than the Arabs that hadn't much of anything to do with the worst atrocity to ever happen to the Jewish people.

In the aftermath of WWII, the Allied powers were removing Germans by the MILLIONS from lands they intended to give to other countries, like Poland and France. Since they were already engaged in ethnic cleansing anyway, why not push Germans out of Bavaria or the Rhineland and hand it over to the Jewish people with the promise of protection from further attack?

 

[Johnrankins]

I wasn't talking about 'Eastern Europe' I was talking about taking a piece of Germany, you know? That country that actually did the Holocaust rather than the Arabs that hadn't much of anything to do with the worst atrocity to ever happen to the Jewish people.

In the aftermath of WWII, the Allied powers were removing Germans by the MILLIONS from lands they intended to give to other countries, like Poland and France. Since they were already engaged in ethnic cleansing anyway, why not push Germans out of Bavaria or the Rhineland and hand it over to the Jewish people with the promise of protection from further attack?

Because they would be surrounded by Germany or Poland or the USSR or some combination of all three. All of them highly anti-sematic in the near past and two of them with potential of being (and one already being) Great Powers and one being a Medium Power while all Arab countries were lesser powers. More importantly Jerusalem wasn't in Germany and the Jews knew it.