AHC: early to mid-America, Christians start to view Jews as brothers and sisters ?

[Dancing Fool]

I’m trying to avoid the casual antisemitism of the 1950s, which was there even after the existence of the Holocaust was known by pretty much every adult American. And earlier antisemitism, and to some extent which still exists today.

And so, I realize we need to start way early.

Bonus points if this involves the “Second Great Awakening” which is dated roughly from 1795 to 1835.

 

[Dancing Fool]

In the U.S., I can personally remember in the 1980s conservatives using the term “Judeo-Christian values,” which were contrasted with “secular humanist values.” And even though there’s a ton of overlap in practical application between these two approaches, inevitably, inevitably ! ! —— the differences were emphasized. Well, of course!

Now, for “Judeo-Christian” to gain traction, you need secular people to play off of, right?

Probably. But there were the Deists from the time of the American Revolution [and probably later]. And Ralph Waldo Emerson and other Trancendentalists were new on the scene from roughly 1830 to 1860. And almost certainly continued later, but the ideas were just no longer quite so new and fresh.

 

[Dancing Fool]

Maybe more early immigration from eastern Europe?

 

[Dancing Fool]

And Christians sometimes use the phrase “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” emphasizing God’s covenantal relationship with the Jewish people, and after Jesus, with all Gentile persons as well.

And this is (one, mainstream) standard Christian worldview.

 

[cloistered scholar]

Look up Zebulon Vance. He was against antisemitism, and even called for greater Jewish immigration to the US.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Dispensationalism takes off earlier? The now commonly accepted theological principle that the Jews are still God's chosen people and that their covenant is still valid, as opposed to the previously common supersessionist position that Jews are merely an obsolete hold out of Messiah-rejecters, is the bed rock of the Evangelical right's current Judeophillia.

 

[brunohusker]

I am not sure what people like William Penn thought of Jews, but seeing as his colony was relatively tolerant, maybe we see Jewish emigration to Philadelphia. I could maybe see Rhode Island or even Maryland too, though iirc Rhode Island only allowed religious freedom for Protestants and while Maryland was more or less the center of US Catholicism for years, even they might not be so tolerant and also, I thought at some point they stopped allowing more catholic settlers.

Another thought might be having a promoter who does something for Jews akin to the black exodusters. Maybe the Dakotas could be a good place. I know Deadwood surprisingly has a decent sized Jewish section in its Boot Hill cemetery. I also know that many plains states did have communities of Jews who tried to set up but they didn’t stay. At least not many of them.

 

[Wendell]

This is not all that far off from OTL before the civil war. Consider the number of Jews in congress or under consideration for presidential appointment compared to Catholics in the same period.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I’m trying to avoid the casual antisemitism of the 1950s, which was there even after the existence of the Holocaust was known by pretty much every adult American. And earlier antisemitism, and to some extent which still exists today.

And so, I realize we need to start way early.

Bonus points if this involves the “Second Great Awakening” which is dated roughly from 1795 to 1835.

Your POD that far back will make the 1950's utterly unrecognizable though?

 

[Dancing Fool]

Your POD that far back will make the 1950's utterly unrecognizable though?

Let’s say we get a net of more mature religious approaches with increased emphasis on how we treat our fellow human beings in the here and now. And in fact, we get the trifecta:

• more respectful treatment of American Indians,
• an earlier and better phasing out of slavery, and
• due to butterflies, no Holocaust against Jewish persons in the 20th century.

Now, in the standard Alternate History universe, you have to really pay a price on the back end, in order to teach you that you can’t change the timeline!

But I ask, How about non-standard AH ! ! ! 😃

 

[Booster Gold]

Maybe you could have a more radical revolution with guys like Thomas Paine becoming more influential, making a bigger, harder push toward secularism, prompting a wagon circling among the religious types. Kind of like the religious reaction to progressivism in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Wade Hampton V]

So I would think that the easiest way to do this would be to juxtapose Jews and Christians united against some third force so that they come to see each other as allies against....something else. What this could realistically be I'm not too sure. Perhaps an earlier rise of the the spiritualism of the late 19th century leads to more irreligious/atheists and the Jewish and Christian communities unite against that? Or an increase in Muslim immigration sometime during the more formative period of the early United States, though I don't know how likely or possible that would be, that likewise bands Christians and Jews together.

 

[Dancing Fool]

Maybe you could have a more radical revolution with guys like Thomas Paine becoming more influential, making a bigger, harder push toward secularism, prompting a wagon circling among the religious types. Kind of like the religious reaction to progressivism in the 1970s and 1980s.

For my timeline, I’m not really thinking of the rise of secularism. Which in any case, I think would be hard before Darwin.

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By the way, I think you nailed the 1970s and 80s.

I just ask, why so many years after Charles Darwin, and why three decades after World War II when it was obvious that God was not on the scene taking care of things, at least not in a traditional sense.

 

[Booster Gold]

For my timeline, I’m not really thinking of the rise of secularism. Which in any case, I think would be hard before Darwin.

Not necessarily. I was thinking of the French revolution as an example. They went really hard on the anti religious stuff (cult of reason, etc.). There's no fundamental reason it couldn't happen in the American revolution, you just need the right atmosphere.

 

[Dancing Fool]

So I would think that the easiest way to do this would be to juxtapose Jews and Christians united against some third force so that they come to see each other as allies

That certainly is a very human approach, for better or for worse! 🥴

Actually, I was hoping Christians themselves would hash things out. Say, between more traditional and more reformist-minded. For example, I think the mainstream view (most common) is that salvation is by faith alone. But there is also the verse in the New Testament: Faith without works is dead. Which is just stunning!

And I suppose many Christians might come to the conclusion that works show we have been saved. But many Christians might also come to the conclusion, Hey, God wants us to do works in the here and now.

Plenty to talk about and think about— and maybe growth as a person.

============

The actual verse is a little longer. Please feel free to look it up at James 2: 17.

And Martin Luther wrote about the Book of James in the New Testament: “an epistle of straw.” Ouch.

So, a lot of different angles.

 

[Wade Hampton V]

Good points, especially about the verse in James. My own view has always been that salvation is indeed through faith alone and that the good works referenced by James are the fruit of that salvation, ie, if you have the Holy Spirit in your heart it is expressed through the ways you interact with the world, your "works". So the works are the effect of being saved, not the cause. That said, I think God absolutely wants us to do good works, but not to earn tokens that get us to heaven but as a reflection of the relationship we have with Him.

Also, I think that Christians have by and large sorted things out between more traditional "high church" denominations such as Episcopalians and "low church" reformist denominations like Baptists. This of course only applies to Protestantism, and American Protestantism at that, I'm not knowledgeable enough about denominational relationships in other countries to venture an opinion. Still, to get that sort of relationship with Judaism earlier than OTL would require, in my very humble opinion, some galvanizing event or group which would unite the two religions in their commonalities rather than their differences.

 

[Dancing Fool]

I was thinking of the French revolution as an example. They went really hard on the anti religious stuff (cult of reason, etc.).

I know Latin American countries, for example, have had Anti-Cleric movements.

but have hard time wrapping my mind around Deist god.

 

[Dancing Fool]

Also, I think that Christians have by and large sorted things out between more traditional "high church" denominations such as Episcopalians and "low church" reformist denominations like Baptists.

in the mid 1800s, I’ve read the Baptists supported a number of causes we might classify as “progressive” these days, such as votes for women and prison reform and i think a couple of other issues

* just to reference political perceptions and such, and I’d add, shifting perceptions

 

[Dancing Fool]

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Matt 22; Pentecost 22A)

In our Gospel this coming Sunday (Matt 22:34-40), Jesus reinforces the centrality of loving God in all that we do in our discipleship, as well as underlining the importance of loving our neighbour …

johntsquires.com

Rabbi Hillel: “What is hateful to you, do not do to anyone. That is the whole law; all the rest is commentary.”

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And I think this is one of best versions of the Golden Rule out there.

 

[Arariboia Guamá]

Thread seems to see the hate as too one-sided. It was very much a mutual dislike between both groups.
There's a lot of Christophobia among the jewish community.
Both sides have to reach out or it's just going to result in more hate down the road.

A big incompatibility is due to Christianity being Universalist and Judaism being Exclusivist. Gotta address that somehow.

Hmmmm... Make Messianic Judaism stronger? Could they be a bridge?