AHC Communist Haiti

Make Haiti go communist. You can decide a POD.

How would Haiti being communist affect Haiti in the short term aswell as in the long term? What would communist Haiti look like?
- Demographically
- Economically, for example would Haiti be richer?
- Politically
- Diplomatically
- Culturally
 
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I am not sure of how Haiti could become communist, but my perception is that if Haiti became communist then,
- Haiti would have a lower population growth rate due to communist beliefs in womens rights
- Haiti would have a higher median age, this could be negative or positive for Haiti depending on Haiti being able to exploit their demographic dividend
- There would be ideological migration between the two countries on the Santo Domingo as i assume the US would be even more interested in preventing another carribean country from becoming communist. Leftists from the Dominican republic would moe west while right wingers from Haiti would move east.
- Santo Domingo would be a more armed island
- The Santo Domingo border would be militarised, some remote areas will be used for smuggling
- Haiti would be more educated
- Haiti would get aid from the Warsaw pact which would be more than aid from the West OTL
- Haiti and Cuba would be closer diplomatically
- Haiti would have a larger industry than in OTL, but smaller agriculture than in OTL
.
 
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Toraach

Banned
- Haiti would have a lower population growth rate due to communist beliefs in womens rights
- There would be ideological migration between the two countries on the Santo Domingo as i assume the US would be even more interested in preventing another carribean country from becoming communist. Leftists from the Dominican republic would moe west while right wingers from Haiti would move east.

- Haiti would get aid from the Warsaw pact which would be more than aid from the West OTL

- Haiti would have a larger industry than in OTL, but smaller agriculture than in OTL
.
I think that it might be nice if you study more about realities in real communist countries, so you might change your views shown in those points. In OTL communist countries those matters you wrote here didn't exist. Population growths were high, and in some later lower, but that didn't have anything with women rights. There was NO significant leftists migration to communist countries, from obvious reasons, noone wanted to wait in lines to buy bread. Some commie intelectuals in early periods of the GDR is unimportant. Because the bulk of population just wanted to leave those paradaises. (a return of displaced people after 2WW was a totally diffrent matter). Aid from the Warsaw Pact would be mostly guns and other stuff to better kill oponnents and opress citizens. Industry which probably would be still insignificant, but I agree on smaller agriculture, in kolkhozes they would grow even less than they grow now.

I have a bad filling that it woul be american version of Red Khmers' madness. But also I hope that in this case the US would just invade to end this madness.
 
Rene Theodore was seriously spoken of as a possible Prime Minister for awhile--though he could have succeeded only by convincing people that he was no longer a Communist...


A 'Communist' Solution for Haiti? : Politics: The country weighs a plan to end its crisis by naming a moderate leftist as prime minister.
January 18, 1992|KENNETH FREED | TIMES STAFF WRITER

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti — "Haiti is so screwed up," the senior Haitian army officer told the foreign official, "that when communism has failed all over the world, Haiti is naming a Communist as prime minister."

"Communism, shmomunism," scoffed another foreign official. "Who cares?"

These contrasting views exemplify the division and shifting of traditional positions that mark the crucial maneuverings over what is called here "The Solution." They refer to a plan to end the crisis that began Sept. 30 with the violent overthrow of elected President Jean-Bertrand Aristide by appointing as prime minister Rene Theodore, an outspoken Aristide opponent, and arranging Aristide's return with restricted powers.

The problem is that Theodore, 51, is a Communist. Or as he explained it recently, a soon-to-be former Communist. "When I am named prime minister I will resign from the Communist Party," he told reporters, "and I will be an ex-Communist or former Communist, or whatever you want to call me."

In a country where the powerful business and political elite fear any move toward class reconciliation or equitable redistribution of wealth and where the controlling army has been trained by the United States to loathe communism, Theodore is an anomaly.

The United States, the leader of the world's anti-Communist movement, is actively backing Theodore, as is Aristide from exile; the army high command and major segments of the intellectual and business sectors are also supporting him.

"Rene is one of the most intelligent, honest and best men in the country," said Maryse Penette, Haiti's ambassador to the European Community for five years and a major figure in the Port-au-Prince economic elite. "There is nobody better suited to lead this country."

But there is important opposition, now so strong that The Solution is in danger of falling apart. As Marc Bazin--another member of the Haitian elite, onetime World Bank vice president and a prime minister aspirant--explains the resistance to Theodore: "Once a Communist always a Communist. Theodore is a Communist . . . a serious Communist."

Theodore, based on his record, does not appear to be a classic Marxist-Leninist of the old Soviet style.

The great grandchild of one of Haiti's many short-lived presidents (David Devailmar Theodore served as president in 1914 for three months), Rene Theodore is a member of the country's "black bourgeois," black Haitians who have attained economic and political stature in a society dominated by light-skinned mulattoes.

His background was not that of the stereotypical Communist, emerging from poverty and alienation. Theodore graduated from the Superior Normal School with a degree in physics and mathematics. His father, a legislative deputy from 1967 to 1971, now lives in Tampa, Fla. A brother is a noted thoracic surgeon at Baltimore's Johns Hopkins University. He squires Rene around in a black Mercedes-Benz sedan when his Communist brother visits Washington. A sister resides in south Florida.

Discouraged by the corrupt, often brutal, political and economic conditions here, Theodore left Haiti in 1968 and studied in the old Soviet Union, Mexico and the Dominican Republic. His supporters note that while in Moscow, where he married a Russian woman and fathered twin girls, he attended the Institute of Social Sciences--not Patrice Lumumba University, the training ground for many of the Third World's budding Communists.

He joined the Haitian Communist Party, called the PEP here, as a student. But he stayed away, moving to France in 1975. He didn't return permanently to Haiti until 1986, when he took an active role in a new version of the party called the United Party of Haitian Communists or PUCH. "Since then," he told foreign journalists recently, "I've taken a direct role in a political fight for real democracy in Haiti."

By rabid anti-Communist and even pro-Communist standards, that role was different and low-key. "My evolution is clear," he said, outlining a program that would repel a staunch, Castro-style Communist. His program would include capitalism, foreign aid, foreign investment and a multi-party coalition government with jobs determined by merit not party membership.

"The world has changed for me," he said when asked about his shift from a traditional Communist view. "I do not cling to an anachronistic and archaic spirit."

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-01-18/news/mn-286_1_prime-minister


***
Rene Theodore, Head Of Haitian Communist Party


Rene Theodore died of lung cancer in June, 2003 because of lung cancer. He was the former head of the Haitian Communist Party. He was receiving treatment in Miami's Jackson Memorial Hospital. His death was confirmed by Max Bourjolly who was second in command of the Haitian Communist Party. Rene Theodore entered politics when he was in High School and then continued his political life for 47 years. His last political act was in 2002 December when he co-signed a declaration from the opposition which called for resignation of the then President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

The Haitian Communist Party had been opposing the Aristide government since 2000 when the Lavalas Family Party of Aristide swept a flawed election. Rene Theodore and his men from the Haitian Communist Party accused the President of trying to create 'One-Party, One-Man rule'. Serge Gilles, leader of Socialist Party said that Rene Theodore died as a very convinced democrat who spent his entire life struggling against dictatorship.

Rene Theodore was the grandson of previous President of Haiti, Davilmar Theodore. Rene was born in northwest Ouanaminthe, which is located in the border area of Dominican Republic and Haiti. Rene was an active member of Haitian Unified Communist Party. He was forced into exile in the year 1967 when during the 29 year dictatorship regime of Francois Duvalier and his son Jean-Claude Duvalier.

During his exile, Rene Theodore lived in France and then in Russia. He worked as an anchorman in Creole News Broadcast or Radio Moscow. During his exile, he became the general secretary of the Communist Party and in 1986 he returned to Haiti during an uprising against Jean-Claude Duvalier. In 1991 when the bloody coup ousted Aristide, Rene tried to become Prime Minister by working out a compromise with military but failed.

http://www.haitiobserver.com/blog/tag/people/rene-theodore-head-of-haitian-communist-party.html
 
Possibly do it pre cold war in the 20s and 30s with communists somehow taking a lead in the movement against US occupation?

But the US would never have allowed a Communist government then--and the USSR would be totally lacking in the capacity to protect it as they were to protect Castro's Cuba decades later.
 
But the US would never have allowed a Communist government then--and the USSR would be totally lacking in the capacity to protect it as they were to protect Castro's Cuba decades later.
I wouldn't say "never" but the idea does need to be fleshed out more. Here's a couple ideas:
-US troops end up occupying Haiti longer than they did OTL with communists taking an increasingly bigger share of the resistance movement and anti-US sentiment becoming nearly universal. Independence not achieved till the late 40s or 50s.
-Resistance movement has a variety of different factions, communists are prominent but bourgeois nationalists are at the head of the movement so the US is more willing to withdraw. This lays the foundation for a stronger communist movement in Haiti, which is later able to take power, either through elections or revolution or some combination.
 
I think that it might be nice if you study more about realities in real communist countries, so you might change your views shown in those points. In OTL communist countries those matters you wrote here didn't exist. Population growths were high, and in some later lower, but that didn't have anything with women rights. There was NO significant leftists migration to communist countries, from obvious reasons, noone wanted to wait in lines to buy bread. Some commie intelectuals in early periods of the GDR is unimportant. Because the bulk of population just wanted to leave those paradaises. (a return of displaced people after 2WW was a totally diffrent matter). Aid from the Warsaw Pact would be mostly guns and other stuff to better kill oponnents and opress citizens. Industry which probably would be still insignificant, but I agree on smaller agriculture, in kolkhozes they would grow even less than they grow now.

I have a bad filling that it woul be american version of Red Khmers' madness. But also I hope that in this case the US would just invade to end this madness.
It is empirically untrue that population growth in the Soviet Union and former Warsaw Pact nations wasn't effected by women's rights and the fertility transition. Forced collectivisation and purges in the USSR certainly were a negative bump in Soviet population demographics but they were rather minor in the grander scheme of things - and this isn't an attempt to underplay the horrors of Holodomor or anything like that, but rather a frank assessment of the changes in demographics. If the education and opportunities for women in the Soviet Union hadn't been so rapidly advanced then the population growth would have been far larger. There are even some estimates that posit that a lack of rapid fertility transition could have led to the population of the USSR (or at least the territories that encompassed the USSR) being over a billion at the extreme end of the scale.

I agree that it's unlikely that there would be any sort of significant migration between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. If Haiti had become communist and the Dominican Republic hadn't, it's far more likely that the DR would have sealed the border quickly and become a US stronghold.
 
Haiti could become communist, but it wouldn't last long.

The US would nip it in the bud by supplying Dominicans and encouraging them to invade and overthrow that regime.
 
There's nothing Haiti can offer the communist world except a becoming a bigger money sink than Cuba.
I don't see much support for a Haitian revolution in Moscow.
 
They are going to need someone to overthrow first. Perhaps you get the Dominican Republic invading at some point, or German and American financiers and industrialists buying up everything left of value? Or perhaps forced labor, with Haitians being sent to Central America and the Guianas to work on plantations or canals and mining. Seems rather strange for Haiti of all places to do this, but it also was for Liberia, using corned labor, as well as sending people to Spanish Guinea.
 
If it happens, it happens before or at the same time as Cuba, and the border between Haiti and the DR gets LOTS of attention. Checkpoints and a wall of some kind at the least, a full-on DMZ at the most. Depends on how much the Soviets use Haiti to piss off the Americans and how much of an American puppet state the DR is.
 
I am not sure of how Haiti could become communist, but my perception is that if Haiti became communist then,
- Haiti would have a lower population growth rate due to communist beliefs in womens rights
- Haiti would have a higher median age, this could be negative or positive for Haiti depending on Haiti being able to exploit their demographic dividend
- There would be ideological migration between the two countries on the Santo Domingo as i assume the US would be even more interested in preventing another carribean country from becoming communist. Leftists from the Dominican republic would moe west while right wingers from Haiti would move east.
- Santo Domingo would be a more armed island
- The Santo Domingo border would be militarised, some remote areas will be used for smuggling
- Haiti would be more educated
- Haiti would get aid from the Warsaw pact which would be more than aid from the West OTL
- Haiti and Cuba would be closer diplomatically
- Haiti would have a larger industry than in OTL, but smaller agriculture than in OTL
.
-Haiti would be invaded by Reagan at the latest, as the us would not tolerate snother Caribbean state going communist, as they did no tolerate insignificant Grenada going communist. Also Haiti, unlike Cuba is smal enough that it may be invaded in a swift action, putting the international community against a fait accompli
 
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