AHC Britian and France join the ACW

Saphroneth

Banned
I think I've also got a pretty good PoD for the British getting involved as all but a sure thing. Basically, have the incident where HMS Terror (the ironclad) was nearly fired on by a US ship in 1861 be her actually opening fire. Terror returns fire, handily beats her opponent (68-lbers and iron armour mean this seems likely) and the whole thing rachets up tensions - enough that when Trent or *Trent (say, a US ship pursuing a ship with Mason and Sliddell on them into British territorial waters, as was the plan at one point) happens, then the British treat it as another act of war and public pressure means that Lincoln can't acede to the (more fiery) ultimatum.

Bringing in the French is then left to taste - perhaps the Union embargoes grain and this means they alienate most of Europe, and Napoleon III decides to support his cordial ally of Britain?
 
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I think I've also got a pretty good PoD for the British getting involved as all but a sure thing. Basically, have the incident where HMS Terror (the ironclad) was nearly fired on by a US ship in 1861 be her actually opening fire. Terror returns fire, handily beats her opponent (68-lbers and iron armour mean this seems likely) and the whole thing rachets up tensions - enough that when Trent or *Trent (say, a US ship pursuing a ship with Mason and Sliddell on them into US territorial waters, as was the plan at one point) happens, then the British treat it as another act of war and public pressure means that Lincoln can't acede to the (more fiery) ultimatum.

Bringing in the French is then left to taste - perhaps the Union embargoes grain and this means they alienate most of Europe, and Napoleon III decides to support his cordial ally of Britain?

Why would Napoleon do that? Better to buy the grain from the US to resell to GB. The middleman markup would boost the French economy.
 

frlmerrin

Banned
Actually, even the British acknowledged that if Trent had been taken as a prize and the case had gone to court (at Key West, presumably), it would have been handled as an admiralty (small "a";)) law case, just as blockade runners were...

The fact that the ship was not taken into port is what gave the British (paradoxically) something to complain about.

Best,

Actually the British, as in the British Government acknowledged nothing of the kind. What did happen was that a number of Law Officers and others in the profession considered an hypothetical prior to the Trent outrage. Then after the outrage they and many others mooted all sorts of historical events as legal model of the outrage itself.

More importantly in OTL the British Cabinet never had to decide if they were going to treat the outrage as a legal matter and let an Admiralty Court adjudicate the matter or if they were simply going to treat the matter as an insult to the British flag and issue an ultimatum anyway. They were very luck that they were not put into the position where they might have had to make that decision and as a result of this enjoyed considerably less support internationally. This luck was of course entirely due to the behaviour of Wilkes and Fairfax who managed between them to ignore all precedents and simply kidnap the Confederate Commissioners from a neutral vessel under contract to a neutral government in international waters travelling between two neutral ports.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The closest I can think of to a legal reason to stop the ship and seize something is the doctrine of continuous voyage. But that's got two problems to it.

1) Continuous voyage is almost exclusively applied to breaking blockade inwards, not outwards.
2) People are not contraband! Contraband is a legal term, the list for which must be published ahead of time, and "people" isn't on it.

If this case were to rule that the seizure was legal, here's what it would mean.

A) Contraband does not need to be declared beforehand, but may be decided upon at the discretion of the captain doing the seizing.
B) Contraband may include persons.
C) A ship travelling between neutral ports is at risk of seizure and condemnation if she has touched at any port where a vessel from a blockaded power has touched, or at any port where it is possible that some object from a blockaded power could have come onboard.
Therefore
D) All ships are legally liable to seizure by a blockading power, no matter where they are or what they carry.
 

frlmerrin

Banned
Only if Farragut, DuPont, Goldsborough, Stringham, etc were so obliging as to steam out into the Atlantic for some sort of Marquess of Queensbury maritime title fight.:rolleyes:

Considering their peers in 1775-83 and 1783 and 1812-15 weren't that feckless, probably not.;)

Best,

So the USN is blockaded in port and loses ... or it comes out to fight and loses.

The only useful thing the USN can do is what the Imperial Russian Navy did in the Crimean war: strip the ships of their big guns and use them to supplement the very small numbers of guns available in the coastal fortifications. As TFSmith121 has recently demonstrated by reference to the ORN there are nowhere near enough guns in the armouries to fill or even partially fill empty fortifications. The naval personnel can be used to make up for the acute perhaps even catastrophic shortage of trained or indeed any kind of gunner in the coastal fortifications.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Didn't make a difference in 1807 or 1811, however

I think I've also got a pretty good PoD for the British getting involved as all but a sure thing. Basically, have the incident where HMS Terror (the ironclad) was nearly fired on by a US ship in 1861 be her actually opening fire. Terror returns fire, handily beats her opponent (68-lbers and iron armour mean this seems likely) and the whole thing rachets up tensions - enough that when Trent or *Trent (say, a US ship pursuing a ship with Mason and Sliddell on them into US territorial waters, as was the plan at one point) happens, then the British treat it as another act of war and public pressure means that Lincoln can't acede to the (more fiery) ultimatum.

Didn't make a difference in 1807 or 1811 (where the British casualties included 11 dead and 21 wounded), however.

Or, for that matter, in 1946-47.

Best,
 
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frlmerrin

Banned
A complete and total British victory would have ended with Crimea being either 1) Under British rule 2) Under the rule of one of its allies or 3) totally independent. None of these things happened it wound up being still under Russian rule.

I would like to give you the opportunity to withdraw this as to the best of my knowledge the capture of the Crimea was not part of any British war aims during the Crimean war. If I am correct your suggestion that a total British victory requires that they address war aims that they never had is patently absurd.

The distraction was mainly that the Russians were worried that the Austrians would jump them which tied down quite a few troops.

Compared with the number of troops the British were holding down in the Baltic this was for the most part not that important.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Entertainingly enough, even Palmerston acknowledged it

- snip -

Actually the British, as in the British Government acknowledged nothing of the kind. What did happen was that a number of Law Officers and others in the profession considered an hypothetical prior to the Trent outrage.

Entertainingly enough, even Palmerston acknowledged it, as has been posted here in the past.

And of course, if one is going to complain about violations of law and procedure, if the end result is an invitation to participate in a legal proceeding, seems rather questionable to complain about it.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Wilkes could have always said he thought Trent was a slaver ...

The closest I can think of to a legal reason to stop the ship and seize something is the doctrine of continuous voyage. - snip -

Wilkes could have always said he thought Trent was a slaver ... worked for Odenwald, after all.;)

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
No, they could do what Tryon did during the Achill exercises

So the USN is blockaded in port and loses ... or it comes out to fight and loses. The only useful thing the USN can do is what the Imperial Russian Navy did in the Crimean war: strip the ships of their big guns and use them to supplement the very small numbers of guns available in the coastal fortifications. As TFSmith121 has recently demonstrated by reference to the ORN there are nowhere near enough guns in the armouries to fill or even partially fill empty fortifications. The naval personnel can be used to make up for the acute perhaps even catastrophic shortage of trained or indeed any kind of gunner in the coastal fortifications.

No, they could do what Tryon did during the Achill exercises; worked out pretty well, actually, at least in terms of peacetime practice - at least he didn't run two of his capital ships into each other, or (as Sotheby did with HMS Conqueror) run aground in British territorial waters.

However bad Tryon was at ship-handling and squadron maneuvers, he had a pretty sharp insight into how to break a close blockade in the Nineteenth Century. Pretty close to how the Americans chose to get ships to sea in 1775-83 and 1812-15, of course.

And, as stated, there were plenty of guns available to thicken up the shoreside defenses in the important US ports; given the weakness of the rebels, they were never needed, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, as per:

One of the questions that comes up in these discussions is usually along the lines of "the American harbor defense forts were not fully armed or manned during the war historically, so obviously if a European power intervened in 1862, then any city defended by these positions was vulnerable to European seapower."

Now, the problem inherent in this is, of course, that the forts were generally not armed or manned to their full extent in 1861-65 because the rebels didn't have anything approximating a navy, not because the Lincoln Administration and the War and Navy departments were made up of drooling idiots.;)

Of course, the reality that every great power conflict in this period - and, generally, throughout history - comes with a short of war period is handwaved away, along with such minor realities as the communication delay between (say) London and Halifax, much less between Halifax and any ships at sea.

This usually involves the US allowing British officials to use the US telegraph system (which was, essentially, under military control from early in 1861) or something equally ridiculous; the communications lag from Europe to the Western Hemisphere is, of course, generally just ignored.



With that in mind, obviously, the reality is that any political situation that was deteriorating toward war would, in fact, result in an effort by the US to strengthen the coastal defenses in the major Atlantic embayments and harbors, including:
  • naval forces on the water,
  • additional artillery and fortifications and troops ashore, and
  • obstacles - mines, blockships, chains, cables, rafts, booms, dams, weirs, breakwaters, etc. - in the water.
This is usually handwaved away as well, despite multiple references in the Official Records to just such sorts of activities, including army and naval commanders at a given point working together to maximize the effectiveness of their resources.

Along those lines, there's usually some cherry-picked piece of information about unfinished fortifications, unmounted guns, or something similar, up to and including the standard remark that the guns placed in a given fortification in a war where there was no maritime threat would surely be all that was available if there was one.:rolleyes:

What's interesting about that is in the report by the US Army Ordnance Department as of June, 1862 (note: not the Navy Department, or detailing weapons and munitions procured by the state Adjutant Generals' offices) is there is a very complete survey of equipment of all types procured during the previous 15 months, including - wait for it - artillery.

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cg...=root;size=100

The table is split between field, siege, and (separately) sea coast guns and mortars, and include those on hand when the war began in April, 1861, those purchased between April, 1861 and June, 1862, weapons issued from the arsenals, and those remaining in store and so available to be used in (say) new units for the field armies and/or reinforced fortifications.

The numbers are very interesting.

In April, 1861, there were 231 field guns, 544 siege guns, and 1,508 sea coast guns and mortars on hand; an additional 1,608 field guns, 211 siege guns, and 302 sea coast guns and mortars were procured by June, 1862, and no less than 1,373 field guns, 553 siege guns, and 1,296 sea coast guns and mortars were issued - meaning supplied to units in the field and manning fortified posts. That left no less than 466 field guns, 202 siege guns, and 604 sea coast guns and mortars in store for future use.

In other words, after putting 3,132 guns into service with active forces, there were still another 1,272 in store - including no less than 806 heavy guns (siege artillery and seacoast guns and mortars). Or, in other words, enough artillery to equip 212 additional batteries of six guns each, including 77 batteries of field artillery, 33 of siege artillery, and 100 batteries of sea coast guns and mortars.

To put that another way, if a standard divisional artillery is estimated at three batteries of six guns each, or 18 total, that's enough field artillery for 25 infantry divisions. The siege artillery batteries would be enough for (as an example) 11 additonal separate battalions of three batteries each, while the 100 batteries of coast artillery pieces would be enough to equip eight additional full regiments (12 companies/batteries each) of heavy artillery for fortress duty.

And in case anyone thinks that's the end of it, a year later, in June of 1863, the number of guns in store had actually increased in all three categories.

Amazing what can be found in the Official Records when one looks at them.

Best,
 
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frlmerrin

Banned
Entertainingly enough, even Palmerston acknowledged it, as has been posted here in the past.

And of course, if one is going to complain about violations of law and procedure, if the end result is an invitation to participate in a legal proceeding, seems rather questionable to complain about it.

Best,

What Palmerston discussed is not the same as what the British Government acknowledged. To suggest otherwise is even more absurd than suggesting that the USA intended to conquer BNA based on Seward's drunken semi-public ramblings on the subject.

Presumably having such a detailed understanding of Palmerston's views on the matter you are well aware that he was of two minds of the relevance of legal opinion on what he intended to do. Fortunately due to the utter lack of professionalism by Wilkes and Fairfax no decision was required.
 
So the USN is blockaded in port and loses ... or it comes out to fight and loses.

The only useful thing the USN can do is what the Imperial Russian Navy did in the Crimean war: strip the ships of their big guns and use them to supplement the very small numbers of guns available in the coastal fortifications. As TFSmith121 has recently demonstrated by reference to the ORN there are nowhere near enough guns in the armouries to fill or even partially fill empty fortifications. The naval personnel can be used to make up for the acute perhaps even catastrophic shortage of trained or indeed any kind of gunner in the coastal fortifications.

define a win... the German Navy in two world wars lost every significant surface engagement but still very nearly brought the British to their knees using submarine warfare. Another British naval war, the American Revolution, saw two serious invasion scares (two years in a row, and I mean threatened invasions of England) and the British won most of the naval engagements except the one that really mattered at the Virginia Capes. The War of 1812 is considered a draw by every serious historian in print, and while the Royal Navy managed to keep most of the USN in port, it still couldn't stop privateers and several major US warships from inflicting severe damage on trade and causing economic damage to Britain.

The Royal Navy has nothing to be ashamed of historically, but it isn't invincible, has a history of some pretty serious strategic errors that were very costly, and while the US Navy is hardly in its class in terms of Blue Water capability in 1862, it is perfectly capable of challenging seriously the British inshore (Brown Water) and inflicting serious damage to British trade through commerce raiding.

I have recommended serious works on naval history to you. I encourage you to read them. Navies aren't just about how many guns a ship has and how many tons or what the turn of speed is. How the ships are handled, the strategy of their commanders, and the strategy and objectives of the politicians that control them matters a great deal more. Ships matter, but so do things like the weather, the geography of the contested areas, missions assigned and required and a whole host of other things including maintenance and the time/speed/endurance calculations of warships going to and from their patrol areas and of course the reliability of the technology they are using.

All the bluster of comments from you indicating that the RN will simply brush aside American resistance ignores the historical record and all of the factors I listed above. So are you trolling to get a rise out of people or do you honestly believe what you are saying and if so, what basis do you have to say it?
 

frlmerrin

Banned
The numbers are very interesting.

In April, 1861, there were 231 field guns, 544 siege guns, and 1,508 sea coast guns and mortars on hand; an additional 1,608 field guns, 211 siege guns, and 302 sea coast guns and mortars were procured by June, 1862, and no less than 1,373 field guns, 553 siege guns, and 1,296 sea coast guns and mortars were issued - meaning supplied to units in the field and manning fortified posts. That left no less than 466 field guns, 202 siege guns, and 604 sea coast guns and mortars in store for future use.

In other words, after putting 3,132 guns into service with active forces, there were still another 1,272 in store - including no less than 806 heavy guns (siege artillery and seacoast guns and mortars). Or, in other words, enough artillery to equip 212 additional batteries of six guns each, including 77 batteries of field artillery, 33 of siege artillery, and 100 batteries of sea coast guns and mortars.

Why yes they are very interesting they demonstrate the chronic shortage of coastal weapons the Union have no way of making up. In fact if you look at the info. around your posted link you find the problem is even worse than your numbers suggest.
 
the whole Germany thing

isn't really relevant to the time period to be honest, and really I think it only comes up because of Turtledove

Saph is right. The creation of Germany was not an historical inevitability. Much depended on how Austria handled things with the War with Denmark and whether France and Austria decided to work together in 1866 (a possibility as both had interests in keeping Italy divided, who also was allied to Prussia). It depends on whether Bavaria can remain relevant as a German power. It depends on what the Russians do (nothing historically that stopped the unification, but it wasn't impossible that they might have views on keeping Germany relatively weak)

lots of what ifs of course, but enough that things could have stopped it. For that matter Bismark could have caught a disease or slipped and fallen in the bathtub and died at the wrong moment for Prussia.

While the American Civil War was really important, its importance to Europe of that time period does not impact the creation of united Italy or Germany. Nor is Germany automatically the enemy of the United States that lost the South.
 
Why yes they are very interesting they demonstrate the chronic shortage of coastal weapons the Union have no way of making up. In fact if you look at the info. around your posted link you find the problem is even worse than your numbers suggest.

I am curious how you are getting 'chronic shortage of weapons' from weapons available and not in use (in other words, spare inventory)

can you explain your reasoning?
 
Wilkes could have always said he thought Trent was a slaver ... worked for Odenwald, after all.;)

Best,

What?

Are you talking about the German Odenwald or did I got the name wrong?

The Odenwald was seized because it was a German ship sailing under the US flag and claimed to be the "American freighter Willmoto".

Also if Wilkes claimed the Trent to be a slaver no court would believe on that, not even the most pro-Union court, also if he did that and given that the Trent was bound from Havana to St. Thomas and then to GB I would like to know how would Wilkes argue that the Trent was a slaver.

"The Trent was a slaver."

"Do you have prof?"

"Of course not. What do you take me for?"

Not even a Kangaroo court would go so low as to believe that the Trent was a slaver bound to GB.
 
What?

Are you talking about the German Odenwald or did I got the name wrong?

The Odenwald was seized because it was a German ship sailing under the US flag and claimed to be the "American freighter Willmoto".

Also if Wilkes claimed the Trent to be a slaver no court would believe on that, not even the most pro-Union court, also if he did that and given that the Trent was bound from Havana to St. Thomas and then to GB I would like to know how would Wilkes argue that the Trent was a slaver.

"The Trent was a slaver."

"Do you have prof?"

"Of course not. What do you take me for?"

Not even a Kangaroo court would go so low as to believe that the Trent was a slaver bound to GB.

my own take is that the biggest sin Wilkes made was failing to follow the letter of the law and taking the Trent to prize court for adjudication. Which was the legal avenue of the day and something the British did not object to when it came to blockade runners and used as a matter of course in every significant war beginning with the 1st Anglo-Dutch War.

I suspect, although who can really say, that he thought that removing the Southerners would annoy the British less than basically seizing the ship and taking it into court. Which if true shows that half measures can be a poor choice in a military or diplomatic situation. While you and I know that the Trent was neither a slaver or a blockade runner (as it was a packet ship on an established run), legally Wilkes could have said either and legally been in the right pending an admiralty hearing.

Removing passengers and sending the ship on its way was not technically the legally correct answer to his problem. I don't think he was a fool, I think he was a warrior type, and sometimes they tend to think all problems can be solved with a hammer.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Pam was of multiple opinions on almost everything;

Presumably having such a detailed understanding of Palmerston's views on the matter you are well aware that he was of two minds of the relevance of legal opinion on what he intended to do.

Pam was of multiple opinions on almost everything; there's a reason he shifted from Conservative to Liberal over the course of six decades in politics, and was ready to continue and intensify the war with the Russians over the Black Sea exits after engineering Aberdeen's ouster and yet, less than a decade later, was manifestly unready to go to war with the Germans and Austrians over the Baltic exits.

That being said, at the age of 78 in the winter of 1861-62, he was as bellicose as ever (never having seen active service, of course, he was - almost - always willing to go to war if soneone else was fighting it) and in a London gone wrong enough to allow for a British intervention in the Civil War, he was, with all his faults, the prime minister and leading political figure of the day.

If there was to be an Anglo-American conflict in 1862-??, it would be Palmerston's doing, not Lincoln's, just as the unnecessary prolongation of the Russo-Turkish war after the Russians withdrew from the Danube was his decision, as well.

Best,
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Shortage when there are 1849 issued and 806 in store?

Why yes they are very interesting they demonstrate the chronic shortage of coastal weapons the Union have no way of making up. In fact if you look at the info. around your posted link you find the problem is even worse than your numbers suggest.

I am curious how you are getting 'chronic shortage of weapons' from weapons available and not in use (in other words, spare inventory) can you explain your reasoning?

Yeah, not sure how that having 553 siege guns and 1,296 sea coast guns and mortars issued - meaning supplied to units in the field and those manning fortified posts - and another 806 heavy guns (siege artillery and seacoast guns and mortars) in store is a shortage.

And, it is worth pointing out, those are the weapons handled by ARMY Ordnance alone; those handled by the Navy and Treasury departments (Revenue Marine) and the adjutants-generals of the states, for example, are not included.

And, it appears the numbers in the Ordnance Report do not include the weapons in hands of troops - and, possibly, in fortifications - before April, 1861.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Court doesn't have to believe it, do they?

What? Are you talking about the German Odenwald or did I got the name wrong? The Odenwald was seized because it was a German ship sailing under the US flag and claimed to be the "American freighter Willmoto". Also if Wilkes claimed the Trent to be a slaver no court would believe on that, not even the most pro-Union court, also if he did that and given that the Trent was bound from Havana to St. Thomas and then to GB I would like to know how would Wilkes argue that the Trent was a slaver. "The Trent was a slaver." "Do you have prof?" "Of course not. What do you take me for?" Not even a Kangaroo court would go so low as to believe that the Trent was a slaver bound to GB.

Court doesn't have to believe it, do they? All he has to do is advance it as his reasoning ... it's not like anyone needed a warrant. Although going along the law enforcement angle, Mason and Slidell and the two secretaries were arrested, and everyone knew who had them; they were hardly "kidnapped" ...

And for what its' worth, both Slidell and Mason were slaveowners; who knows what they might have been up to? And in a British-flag ship, at that?

I am shocked, shocked to see gambling in Casblanca...:rolleyes:

Best,
 
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