AHC: Anglosphere Union

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Great Britain

Great Britain

With a pod of 1900 how do we get an Anglosphere Union similar to the modern day EU- with intergovernmental and supranational elements. Whilst this matinclude countries like India,South Africa etc,I think it would be easier if only the UK,US,Canada,Australia and NZ are included.(but to include the others would certainly be an interesting concept) I guess the easiest would be a Nazi victory in mainland Europe in ww2, but I'm unsure of others ways of this happening as it would need to be popular in the US,which I guess would be difficult in the 20th century.

Also,are there any timelines with a concept like this on the board?
 

Onkel Willie

Great Britain said:
With a pod of 1900 how do we get an Anglosphere Union similar to the modern day EU- with intergovernmental and supranational elements. Whilst this matinclude countries like India,South Africa etc,I think it would be easier if only the UK,US,Canada,Australia and NZ are included.(but to include the others would certainly be an interesting concept) I guess the easiest would be a Nazi victory in mainland Europe in ww2, but I'm unsure of others ways of this happening as it would need to be popular in the US,which I guess would be difficult in the 20th century.

Also,are there any timelines with a concept like this on the board?
Click to expand...

I think avoiding both world wars could produce the desired effect. In the late 19th century the idea was proposed to federalize the British Empire. I'm not sure whether that would world for the entire British Empire, which would probably require an earlier PoD, but I could see a CANZUK (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK) federation or confederation of some kind emerging from that if efforts are put into it.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Ah. PoD after 1900. Oh well.
If you allow a PoD in the Civil War, we have the famous piece by that well known alt-historian Winston Churchill.
To quote wiki
  • "If Lee Had NOT Won the Battle of Gettysburg" by Winston Churchill: This essay is written from the viewpoint of a historian in a world where the Confederate Army won the Battle of Gettysburg and the Civil War, and the narration frequently asks what would happen if that were not so, the joke being that we know that it isn't so. Although the Confederacy achieves independence, the British Empire becomes a broker between the United States and CSA, resulting in an eventual unification of all three as the "English Speaking Association", which prevents World War I.[3]
Click to expand...
 

Devvy

Donor
No chance including the US.

Maybe possible in the interwar period with the UK/Canada/Aus/NZ, but you'd need others to provide the glue. After all, economic interests will rule the roost; why bother being in an economic union with solely a country or two half a world away?

Most likely workable formation as I see it: UK, Ireland, Nordics (always economically linked to the UK), Canada, Belize, Jamaica & rest of Anglo Caribbean, Anglo-Africa (probably with a few others like Burundi, Rwanda, Mozambique joining at some later stage), Trucial Oman/States, Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, Malaysia, Singapore. All those areas are at least majority English speaking (or at least majority English capable), have a load of nearby members (so this union provides a level of regional integration), provides support for countries who have aggressive neighbours (Malaysia, Nordics, Belize).

It's definitely a stretch though; I think the odds are definitely stacked against it.

What I could see happening between UK/Canada/Aus/NZ (and maybe Ireland) is completely free trade, free movement of people, some kind of military alliance and massive shared research programmes (ie. military research, space, other science research). I can't see much more then that possible to be honest in the long term.
 
Asami

Asami

Banned
There's some support amongst Anglophiles to form an EU-like structure amongst the members of the Five Eyes. You could definitely get away with a post-WW1 POD.
 

Luminous

Biggest problem is that the two cores (the US and the UK) do not want to cede any power to the other. Plus, with one being heavily republican and the other monarchist, and the one isolationist and the other interventionist, combined with a myriad of other issues, and this isn't an easy problem.

Some sort of Imperial Federation incorporates all but the US, but it misses the intentions. The other part of the problem is trying to incorporate two different aspects. The US alone would feel rather isolated in the federation.

I'd propose a method that, on one hand, depends on a reduced British Federation (which, granted, would include all the settler Dominions, the Caribbean, South East Asia, etc) that is missing India and some other vestigial regions on the edges. on the other side, have the US maintain better relations with the Philippines (a greater investment in the Philippines, even if just in men and personnel rather than pure infrastructure. The early Filipino politics was an extremely local affair). Essentially, a statehood party that succeeds more and eventually morphs into a pro-US alliance party. Combine that with Cuba remaining a US protectorate.

Then, have the US sphere morph into a supranational union that results in some outsourcing but also investment into those US aligned nations. (this could include the Latin American countries). And, for whatever reason is appropriate in the timeline (Russia, Germany, etc), the USTO and the ComNat drift together just because they secure regions that concern both of them (the Pacific and the Caribbean) while providing the advantages of a common tongue and history.

Perhaps, once South Africa eventually goes to apartheid (murdering butterflies here), there would be a greater reaction by the ComNat, which could involve into a combined action by both sides? The South Africa intervention eventually becomes the defining moment where we have the creation of a supra-supranational organization, the beginning of economic integration and inter-organization movement being lowered.

Obviously too simplified, but of the two organizations, the Imperial one has the UK, Canada, Australia, the Caribbean Federation/etc, Malay States/Sarawak/Straight Settlements/North Borneo, etc, while the Republican one is the US, South Africa, Ireland, Cuba/Latin America, the Philippines, etc. (South Africa really drifting later on, while still technically ComNat)

Two roughly equivalent sides, with the "core" UK (UK/Canada/Australia/New Zealand) as a whole is, while maybe not as strong as the US, is close enough that there is parity. The UK might even retain the Straight Settlements, many of the small islands, etc. Hong Kong would be... interesting). The US sphere, while smaller and top heavy, is roughly equivalent and, in the end, it is an alliance between two equal alliances that grows.

Granted, the government might start resembling the HRE soon enough...
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Another possibility is if alt-WWII goes really badly and some power takes over all of Europe (a saner right wing dictator than Hitler using Germany, or a more expansionist USSR, perhaps).

A 'UN' equivalent with teeth forms with all the free nations of the world.
 

Riain

Banned
Asami said:
There's some support amongst Anglophiles to form an EU-like structure amongst the members of the Five Eyes. You could definitely get away with a post-WW1 POD.
Click to expand...

There are some pretty incestuous relationships among the Five Eyes and parts thereof, which could be expanded where members including the US are constrained on making policy decisions due to their ties on the others. The British nuclear weapons programme is one example where these days it is could be considered as part of the US programme, their warheads are closely related with US using British technology and the British part of the leasing pool for Trident rockets. Prior to this the British relied heavily on the Commonwealth to make up the shortfall in scientific resources for its own nuclear programme.

So perhaps a situation arose where the British have their own dual-key nukes with the Dominions leading to a situation where Canadians are in high command in NORAD with BOMARCs tipped with British dual key nuke warheads. The only way this situation could be controlled is through very tight government relationships, so the USAF has the authority to command Canadians to fire BOMARCs with British nukes, and nobody could unilaterally pull out without the entire structure collapsing. What's more these situations could be ubiquitous in places like South East Asia where Australians, Kiwis, Brits and US operate seamlessly.
 

Ratmancampidori

Banned
Wheres @British Republic when you need him, I think he could answer your question Great Brit....hey wait a minute!

This is either a massive coincidence, or one of more obvious attempts at a sockpuppet this forum has seen.
 

British Republic

Banned
Anyway, the first thing you need to allow (at the very least) such a union to take place is to either butterfly the ARW or have the British allow for representation in House of Commons for the 13 Colonies, which I have explained in greater detail (and other aspects) in the following (earlier) post I have made on this subject:

British Republic said:
I don't know about the others but from the British perspective (and someone who had Indian Ancestry) I can tell that the way I see it the only way you can have a Imperial Federation covering the whole of the British Empire without having the Indians dominating it is to prevent the loss of the 13 colonies (and thus preventing the formation of the United States) and maybe retaining the Dutch East Indies (rather than giving it back to the Dutch after the Napoleonic Wars).

That way the resulting Brirish Empire would be roughtly balanced (demographic wise) between the Indians of India, the various peoples of the East Indies and the various peoples of North America and force these various ethnic groups to share power. Otherwise it would ultimately result in an "Indian" British Empire.

Besides even if the 13 Colonies and the Dutch East Indies where retained, there is still the matter of giving at least the Anglophone Indians, Africans and other Non-Whites both the right to vote and a place on the table. Which is possible but rather difficult to achieve.
Click to expand...

Likewise I have also explained these points in greater detail in my posts in the following threads:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-to-the-decline-of-the-british-empire.341844/

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...colonies-how-would-the-empire-develop.342396/
 

rbeco3690

Screenshot 2018-10-28 13.41.29.png


POD:

  • The UK demures from entering The Great War in 1914, against the wishes of David Llyod George and Winston Churchill.
  • However, a compromise is made where David Llyod George and Winston Churchill are tasked with building an Imperial Defence Force, as a deterrent against any possible attack from the European Continent.
  • The IDF recruits millions from across the Empire, but only citizens of the White Dominions are given positions of high rank.
  • Furthermore, The Royal Navy(soon to be The Imperial Navy), blockades all trade to and from the continent, making The UK the only power who can send war relief to Europe.
  • The UK supplies France and Russia with as much Aid as possible, leaving the Germans to rely on resources from their European conquests.
  • As the War ravages the European powers, Germany desperate for munitions, attacks the Imperial Navy.
  • Asquith steps down and is replaced by the boisterous David Llyod George, who leads the Imperial Armed Forces into The Great War in 1916
  • The War has severely weakened all the Great Powers of the European Continent, who is not ready for an ocean of Imperial soldiers who land on Normandy, nor the full-scale attack on Gallipoli.
  • Imperial forces take complete control of the Dardanelles and soon capture Constantinople. The Ottoman Empire surrenders and begins its journey into complete collapse.
  • With its southern ally suddenly defeated, the Germans and the Austro-Hungarians find themselves vulnerable from the south.
  • Russian and Imperial forces, allied with Balkan militaries make a be-line for the Central Powers.
  • So do French and Imperial forces from the Western Front.
  • With the two nations finding themselves massively outnumbered, in men and munitions, from a deadly pincer attack, the only option is to take the fight to the seas and threaten the British mainland.
  • The Kriegsmarine and the Imperial Navy battle it out in the North Sea, but by 1917, every usable ship and sub the Germans can deploy, are the bottom of the high seas
  • The Central Powers seeing their final gambit fail horrendously, and with Russian forces coming from the East, Imperial Forces from the South, Franco-Imperial Forces from the West, and the threat of an Imperial land invasion from the North, The Central Powers agree to an unconditional surrender in 1917.
  • Imperial Britain's decisive victory in bringing the Continent to heal, allows David Llyod George to set the Peace Terms. The European allies find themselves completely in debt to the UK and ask for generous aid to rebuild their decimated societies.
  • David Llyod George must figure out how to prevent a future Great War scenario, and also deal with the calamity ensuing in the Middle East with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. However, he is forced to deal with an even greater crisis at home.
  • To deal with the possibility of an Irish Civil War, David Llyod George hands over the post-War terms in Europe to France, who exacts severe punishments on Germany, calling for disarmament, war reparations, and the loss of its imperial possessions. Furthermore, Germany and Austro-Hungary are broken up, and its territories handed over to France and Russia, with the rest given independence.
  • This humiliation will not be forgotten by the Germans, nor Imperial Britain signing off on these terms.
  • David Lloyd George did, however, succeed in gaining complete control over Palestine, and decides to incorporate the Suez Region into Palestine. Egypt is not pleased but is no position to argue.
  • A spectacular victory in The Great War, coupled with comradery fostered by the creation of an Imperial Armed Forces, causes an explosion pro-imperial sentiment throughout the Empire, however, the question of Irish Home Rule may put the entire concept of Empire in jeopardy.
  • It became clear that Britain cannot have its cake an eat it too. Many parts of the Empire were increasingly demanding more self- rule, whereas the Dominions, whose contribution in the Great War was universally recognised as decisive to Imperial victory, demanded representation in deciding the future of the Empire.
  • Furthermore, the cost of administering multiple colonial governments and paying for imperial defence was seen by Britain, as too great as time goes by.
  • David Lloyd George, looking for solutions is heavily influenced by Lionel Curtis, and comes to the conclusion that Britain has 2 possible futures:
    • Allow increasing self-rule without representation in imperial decision making and see its Empire soon crumble OR
    • Create a Federal Imperial System that allows for both autonomy and representation in imperial affairs.
  • David Lloyd George chooses the latter and campaigns on a Federalisation programme for the Empire in the 1918 General Election.
  • This divides parliament sharply, as the idea of radically altering Britains political system is hard for many to digest.
  • Furthermore, the idea that Britains power would be diluted and incoming Dominions into the Federal System would gain power seemed unacceptable to many MPs.
  • It was also pointed out that none of the Dominions has agreed to a Federal Union, but due to post-Great War pro-Empire sentiment being sky high, the possibility the Dominions would accept was reasonably likely.
  • Dominion parliaments kept quite as they would not declare intentions before the British General Election.
  • Parliament is divided by those who support David Lloyd George's vision of a Federal Empire or Great Britannia as the David Lloyd George campaign has named the future union- these are the Lloydist MPs
  • On the other hand, all others who stand against this radical vision have teamed up behind the greatest ant-federalist of them all- Winston Churchill. Churchill, who is considered the only statesman who is as famous as David Lloyd George, as both men rose to prominence as "the Duo who Won the Great War", sees the 1918 General election as a shot to become Prime Minister. He is aided by the Churchillian MPs.
  • Lloydist and Churchillian campaigns battle it out, but once the dust settles, David Lloyd George and his coalition of MPs from both Liberal, Conservative, and IPP parties win a clear majority.
  • The creation of Great Britannia is underway.

The United Kingdom of Great Britannia:
GDP: $12.65T
Net National Worth: $85T
Population: 190M
Area: 19,034,944.9km2

National Capital: Waterloo Palace, London.

Realms(First Order Subdivision): Pop/GDP
  1. Britain- 80M/$5.4T
  2. Canada- 45M/$3T
  3. Australia- 30M/$2T
  4. Mediterranean-10M/$0.65T
  5. South Africa-10M/$0.65T
  6. New Zealand-5M/$0.35T
  7. Singapore- 5M/$0.35T
  8. Caribbean- 5M/$0.25T
Dominions(Second Order Subdivision):
  1. London
  2. Northumbria
  3. Cumbria
  4. Chetham
  5. Yorkshire
  6. The Humber
  7. Midlands
  8. Mercia
  9. East Anglia
  10. Essex
  11. Greater Sussex
  12. Wessex
  13. Cornwall
  14. Scotland
  15. Wales
  16. Ulster
  17. Ireland
  18. Guernsey
  19. Jersey
  20. Isle of Man
  21. Israel
  22. Gibraltar
  23. Malta
  24. Cyprus
  25. Ontario
  26. Aurora
  27. Quebec
  28. New Brunswick
  29. British Columbia
  30. Alberta
  31. Nunavik
  32. Nunavut
  33. Nunatsiavut
  34. Manitoba
  35. Saskatchewan
  36. Nova Scotia
  37. Newfoundland
  38. Cape Breton Island
  39. Labrador
  40. Prince Edward Island
  41. Northwest Territories
  42. Yukon
  43. Saint Pierre and Miquelon
  44. New South Wales
  45. Victoria
  46. Queensland
  47. West Australia
  48. South Australia
  49. North Australia
  50. Tasmania
  51. Seychelles
  52. Mauritius
  53. Christmas Cocos Islands
  54. Maldives
  55. Andaman and Nicobar Islands
  56. Laccadive Islands
  57. North Zealand
  58. South Zealand
  59. Fiji
  60. Kiribati
  61. Nauru
  62. Samoa
  63. Solomon Islands
  64. Vanuatu
  65. Tonga
  66. Tuvalu
  67. Cook Islands
  68. Norfolk Island
  69. Niue
  70. Tokelau
  71. Guyana
  72. Barbados
  73. The Bahamas
  74. Grenada
  75. Dominica
  76. Saint Vincents Islands
  77. Bermuda
  78. Antigua and Barbuda
  79. Saint Kitts
  80. Nevis
  81. Anguilla
  82. Saint Lucia
  83. Virgin Islands
  84. Cayman Islands
  85. Turks and Caicos Islands
  86. Jamaica
  87. Trinidad
  88. Tobago
  89. Belize
  90. Montserrat
  91. Saint Helena
  92. Ascension
  93. Tristan da Cunha
  94. Falkland Island
  95. Singapore
  96. The Cape
The Dominions in bold contain the capital city of each Realm.

Britannian Overseas Territories(Negligible permanent population):

  1. South Georgia
  2. South Sandwich Islands
  3. British Indian Ocean Territory
  4. Ashmore and Cartier Islands
  5. Coral Sea Islands
  6. Heard Island
  7. McDonald Islands
  8. Macquarie Island
  9. Socotra
  10. Pitcairn Islands

UK PUBLIC SPENDING: 3.85T

National Insurance- $1.265T

Health- $1.013T

Education- $0.4T

Defence- $0.35T

Community- $0.13T

Transport- $0.13T

Security- $0.13T

Welfare- $0.09T

General Gov- $0.09T

Commerce- $0.085T

General R&D- $0.05T

Interest- $0.04T

Britannian Aerospace(BASE)- $0.03T

BBC- $0.02T

Foreign Aid- $0.017T

Other- $0.01T
 
Indicus

Indicus

Like the EU? No, not happening. I'd argue even an Imperial Federation consisting solely of Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand would be weaker than the EU.
 
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