AHC: A Viking, Arab, Byzantine state

[Deleted member 114175]

In the Middle Ages, Vikings, Arabs, and Byzantines alike developed wide trade networks across Eurasia, expanded spheres of influence, conquered land from each other if only briefly, and all influenced each other in surprising ways.

The challenge is to combine all three groups into one state. A state that is recognized as simultaneously Viking, Arabic, and Byzantine.

One way to do this could be to have the Varangians who raided and traded across the Caspian Sea IOTL establish a state in Mazandaran, establishing Islamized Norse as one of the many military castes used by the Abbasids. The resulting Arab-influenced Viking state unites northern and western Persia and the Caucasus as a vassal of the Abbasids, participates in an Arab centric cultural revival against Turkic tribes that it fights, and recruits Orthodox Georgian, Alan, and Armenian mercenaries providing a substantial Byzantine element.

Bonus challenge: Have this state eventually conquer the Byzantine and Abbasid Empires.

 

[Hegemon]

Maybe one of the Arab Sieges of Constantinople (674, 717) succeeds, and the Empire is basically annexed to the Caliphate. Somehow the caliphate fractures later on, and one of the components, centered in Anatolia, is raided by the Rus’. A Constantinople that is much weaker, due to the Arabs maybe dismantling and weakening parts of the walls deliberately, falls to a group of Rus’, who establish a Russian dynasty around Constantinople and Anatolia. This dynasty receives a heavy influx of Varangians and maybe some other foreigners, which are put to use protecting and fighting for the empire. With enough energy, luck, handwaving, and attention to detail, the Rus dynasty manages to conquer a big chunk of the caliphate for a short time?

That’s what I’ve got. I hope it’s good.

 

[Odinson]

After setting up a state in modern-day Russia, the norse move down south into the Balkans and after centries of skirmishes, seize Byzantine territory, ruling as jarl in the peninsula and along the black sea. The clash of two cultures creates a strange, never before seen mix, including a orthodox Norse duchy. This Empire grows in size into modern Hungary. In the mud 1500s, long after the fall of the Byzantine Empire and the emergence of the ottoman Empire, the two empires become bound through a royal marriage to unite the two entities, thus having an Islamic/orthodoxy Empire that stretches from the Urals to the Mediterranean sea. While not conquering one another, they are instead bound by marriage. "Bella gerant alii, th felix ottoman nube"

Probably not the most realistic, but the best I got.

 

[Minchandre]

You could probably get a state run by Varangians, whether they control the Emperor like a Praetorian Guard or just a Mamluk-style coup.

Adding Arab to the mix seems hard or impossible (though you could have Arabs pull the thing above instead of Varangians). I feel like any group of Varangians that adopted Arab trappings would necessarily stop being Norse.

 

[Hegemon]

You could probably get a state run by Varangians, whether they control the Emperor like a Praetorian Guard or just a Mamluk-style coup.

Adding Arab to the mix seems hard or impossible (though you could have Arabs pull the thing above instead of Varangians). I feel like any group of Varangians that adopted Arab trappings would necessarily stop being Norse.

Maybe that isn’t necessary. If the Rus have increased Islamic/Arab influence, maybe they could convert to Islam. I think the easiest way to do that is for the Caliphate to successfully conquer the Eastern Roman Empire. That way, if and when an alt-Rus’ come along, they would fall under the cultural and economic influence of an Islamic state rather than an Orthodox one.

 

[Minchandre]

Maybe that isn’t necessary. If the Rus have increased Islamic/Arab influence, maybe they could convert to Islam. I think the easiest way to do that is for the Caliphate to successfully conquer the Eastern Roman Empire. That way, if and when an alt-Rus’ come along, they would fall under the cultural and economic influence of an Islamic state rather than an Orthodox one.

Muslim, sure. But not all Muslims are Arabs, as the Iranians, Pakistanis, Malaysians... can attest.

 

[Hegemon]

Muslim, sure. But not all Muslims are Arabs, as the Iranians, Pakistanis, Malaysians... can attest.

True enough, I don’t deny that. I mean that the “Arab” part can kinda be gotten by my proposed caliphate invasion of Anatolia. I know the Hellenic influence would be strong, maybe like Persian influence IOTL, but maybe they can be seen as Arab-ish?

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

I suppose you could count the OTL Kingdom of Sicily, if you're willing to count Normans as "Vikings."

Norman-Arab-Byzantine Culture

 

[Pempelune]

In the Middle Ages, Vikings, Arabs, and Byzantines alike developed wide trade networks across Eurasia, expanded spheres of influence, conquered land from each other if only briefly, and all influenced each other in surprising ways.

The challenge is to combine all three groups into one state. A state that is recognized as simultaneously Viking, Arabic, and Byzantine.

We've done it
We've reached peak AH.com

 

[treefreak32]

The perfect world

 

[Arafeel]

The Vikings conquer Sicily, done.

 

[Hegemon]

I suppose you could count the OTL Kingdom of Sicily, if you're willing to count Normans as "Vikings."

Norman-Arab-Byzantine Culture

Maybe you could have the Sicilians carve out their own state from the Empire, if they can avoid the Sicilian Vespers. Then they could have even more legitimacy in the "Byzantine" department.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

In the Middle Ages, Vikings, Arabs, and Byzantines alike developed wide trade networks across Eurasia, expanded spheres of influence, conquered land from each other if only briefly, and all influenced each other in surprising ways.

The challenge is to combine all three groups into one state. A state that is recognized as simultaneously Viking, Arabic, and Byzantine.

One way to do this could be to have the Varangians who raided and traded across the Caspian Sea IOTL establish a state in Mazandaran, establishing Islamized Norse as one of the many military castes used by the Abbasids. The resulting Arab-influenced Viking state unites northern and western Persia and the Caucasus as a vassal of the Abbasids, participates in an Arab centric cultural revival against Turkic tribes that it fights, and recruits Orthodox Georgian, Alan, and Armenian mercenaries providing a substantial Byzantine element.

Bonus challenge: Have this state eventually conquer the Byzantine and Abbasid Empires.

You do realise that Mazandaran is in Iran? That the Mazandarani dialect is a dialect of Farsi (Persian)? That the Persian language is separate and entirely unrelated to Arabic? That they belong to separate and completely unrelated language families?

The is nothing "Arabic" about Mazandaran. The only Arabic region of Iran is Khuzestan, but that is on the Persian gulf, right on the other side of the country, near Iraq. Ie not reachable from the Caspian.

 

[water123]

A contingent of Vanagarians end up getting promised even more gold by a Caliph, and so they go and fight for him a while before returning home and influencing their homelands.

 

[telynk]

ok how about this:

Step 1: Varangian guard coup in Constantinople establishes a Norse dynasty in Byzantium

Step 2: While the Abbasids are busy fighting the Seljuks, a Norse Emperor launches a campaign into the Levant, taking control of Syria.

Step 3: While this Norse Emperor is out campaigning, those unhappy with his rule take control of Constantinople, establishing their own favourite as Emperor.

Step 4: This Norse Emperor still maintains the loyalty of his army in Syria, but is unable to retake Constaninople. He dies and his son is unable to hold his own against the new Emperor without outside help. He offers to become of vassal of the Fatimid Caliphate, converting to Islam.

Step 5: Eventually, Syria becomes an Arabic-speaking state with a culturally Levantine populace, a Byzantine-derived bureaucracy and army and a Norse-derived dynasty in charge of it all.

 

[Pauh the federalist]

prime areas were all there might be able to project power with the right pod in no particular order (1. Iberian peninsula 2. Sicily/southern Italy 3. northwestern Africa) 4. an odd but fun location would be the Crimea peninsula if an Arab wank happens that allows them to push to Constantinople which results in byzantians relocating to the crimia with the remander of their fleet which provides the set up the area for your Arabrab viking crimmia if Vikings are willing to jump a few rivers in eastern Europe they could bypass the Mediterranean and take over the Roman state from above thereby bypassing there navy (they would never see it coming) once the Romans are gone the remainder of their fleet with no one paying there checks so to speak would see mass desertion with some staying to serve the Vikings becuse they can pay (who are now claiming to be the new Roman emperors for the prestige and forcing the roman empress and princess's to mary into the viking familys bloodline to ligitimize a future viking roman dynisty) the rest may become pirates or serve the arab state holding constantonalple (who is also claiming to be the inheritor of the empire, like the ottomans did) which with the navy now in diseray then would give the arabs an opportunity down the roud to take out this viking state becuse (1. if vikings are viking they may be tring to raid costal cities in the black sea. 2. the Arabs may want to eliminate other claimants for the roman title.) if the arab state collapses at some point and this region breaks away you now have a crimian state, that is viking, arab, bzantine and gothic potentially with the right pod (gothic was relivent still in the principality of theodoro even though greek was the official langadge of the state)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Theodoro

 

[Deleted member 114175]

You do realise that Mazandaran is in Iran? That the Mazandarani dialect is a dialect of Farsi (Persian)? That the Persian language is separate and entirely unrelated to Arabic? That they belong to separate and completely unrelated language families?

The is nothing "Arabic" about Mazandaran. The only Arabic region of Iran is Khuzestan, but that is on the Persian gulf, right on the other side of the country, near Iraq. Ie not reachable from the Caspian.

Yes I know Iran is not Arab.

I meant that a Norse saqaliba/ghilman state in Mazandaran might adopt prestigious parts of Arab culture from the Abbasids to legitimize itself in the region. In the medieval Arab world the word "majūs" referred to both Zoroastrians and to northerners such as the Rus'. This lead to widespread descriptions of Norsemen sharing religious practices with Zoroastrians. If Vikings conquered part of Persia, converted to Islam, and integrated themselves in the Abbasid system, they may be eager to distance themselves from supposed paganism. So they might, like al-Andalus or the Emirate of Tbilisi, adopt the most elite culture within an early-medieval Islamic context which would be courtly Arab culture.

 

[Goldenarchangel]

How about this:

Step 1 : Byzantines hires plenty of Norse for the Varangian Guard

Step 2 : Abbasids manage to bribe or other wise convince the guard to preform a coup against the Byzantine emperor

Step 3 : coup is successful and the Norse control Byzantium as vassals of the Abbasids . Not sure if they can expand to other parts in Europe or Anatolia though

Step 4 : During a period in which the Abbasids are weakened the Norse/Byzantine empire declares independence and conquers parts of Mesopotamia from them.

 

[Pauh the federalist]

You can do the canary islands or west Mediterranean islands may potentially work with Byzantium, or possibly with a surviving western Roman empire that flees if they have the naval power to support it (preventing the wholesale theft of there fleet might do it) this could keep them alive in northwest Africa until a land power (Arabs) pushes them out and forces them to flee to the areas the navy can protect them (canary islands/west Mediterranean islands). With the loss of major regions of wealth the navy becomes unable to update or replace losses to maintain this and by the time the Vikings show up the west Roman navy is a shadow of what it once was, having largely been saved by the caliphate contracting/fighting the Byzantines. This may allow for it to turn into a Viking state that attempts to claim successorship to rome by right of conquest or by blood (forced intermarriage to legitimize there heir) in time if they are receptive to immigration from Arab scholars during the Islamic golden age you may get a country populated by Romans, ruled by Vikings and with an intellectual class of Arab scholars which could get you a Viking, Arab, Roman state.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Caliphate captures Constantinople in the 700s. Caliphate hires marauding Vikings as ghilman. The ghilman gradually become Arabized and eventually overthrow their employers and form a Mamluk-style dynasty of Arabo-Scandinavian Muslims ruling from somewhere in Anatolia.