AHC: A surviving Aztec or Inca Empire invades the Spanish mainland

The problem even if Cortez fails the plagues will come and also mexico will kinda be screwed also with the drought of 1540
Sure, but nations survived worse. Even if they endure instability, with a strong ruler they could survive.
This is a ridiculous statement. The Aztecs didn't simply have "bad luck"; they were in a perpetual state of untenability. The "Empire" wasn't really an empire, but a collection of largely independent states. The Aztecs can theoretically survive longer, but to the point of "modernization" is frankly fantastical. A civil war between the Acohua and the Mexica could very easily tear the Empire apart -- and rivals like the Purepecha could defeat them in any case. The Aztecs were ironically quite weak and relied on terror and violence to keep their subjects in line. And when you harbor enough enemies and the people you rule are sick of your presence, a single slip or crisis can very very quickly crash the house of cards. It's no coincidence that when the Spanish arrived, they, with their native allies, were able to induce a collapse so easily. Gold, feathers, jaguar skins, jade... getting those was hard, and for many altepemeh, it was a nightmare to get those; and often the Aztecs punished rebel subjects by making them pay in exotic items, like quetzal feathers or white deer skins. It's also the situation of the altepetl system that easily manifested Cortez's coalition. And this is just geopolitics; the introduction of disease will completely reshape the region. Most rebellions actually took place because the local rulers had their own political agenda and ambitions and didn't want to be subjects to anyone. That's why most rebellions took place in the most distant provinces, next to enemy states, like Tlaxcallan; and they were mostly carried out during monarchic transitions in Tenochtitlan. And when the Triple Alliance starts to weaken, they are going to quickly jump ship.

At this point, it's just "What if the Triple Alliance survived", and in which case it'd be a landlock rump state.
This is mostly post hoc reasoning. It's clear that modernisation wouldn't be easy, and a very possible fate for the Aztecs is eventually being annexed in some alt-colonialism. But I think this impression of the Aztecs is exaggerated. We can say that people hated them, but that's because they were recently conquered and especially because they were saying it after the Aztecs fell. If Cortez's coalition was crushed--which it could've been, then the rebellion ends and Aztec hegemony continues.

We know for that nearby Teotihuacan was powerful and influential for nearly 3 centuries, and while the details are unknown, they were installing kings as far away as the Yucatan Peninsula, or at the very least acting in a way that made it very wise for Maya kings to adapt Teotihuacan styles and in the process were obtaining Maya to sacrifice. So there's nothing inherently wrong with the Mesoamerican political system to build longlasting empires with widespread influence. And should the Aztecs truly have been brutal by the standards of their region, then it could be mitigated by decrees of rulers or lack of sacrificial victims during the crucial period in the 16th century.
 
but I could see a Incan empire that manages to survive—becomes a middle-power on the level of Brazil or Mexico by the 20th century, and in an alternate WW2, sends an outfit to liberate Europe from some continental Habsburg Menace, as part of a larger New World invasion force along with the Confederation of New France and the Kingdom of Borealia, or whatever.

That may sound like a cop-out, but I'd dare say i it fits the prescribed scenario better than "rowdy diplomatic corps cause scene".

And it's at least trying—not shutting down the discussion with "well, it can't be done! Muh ASB!".
Let's unpack the odds implied in this thing.
The Incan Empire survives ~350 years, at least in spirit. How many polities did that OTL? The answer is "a very select few".
Then, this Incan Empire has to be doing well enough that it's politically worthy to intervene. This isn't particularly hard, but remember we're starting from "very unlikely" and only going down.
Then we add in the fact that this Empire has to do not just on the other side of the Ocean - but in a whole Ocean altogether. The chances this is politically viable or useful is... definitely not great (and we're starting from "less than very unlikely").
Then we add that there must be such a conflict (a WW2 analogue), and/or a world where such a conflict may arise. Neither is very likely - on top of the previous odds.

This is why people "shut the discussion". Because if "just roll enough sixes over so that it happens" is a viable answer, then every challenge can be answered by this and the effective discussion is even lower - or just an exercise in the most improbable storytelling that still manages to qualify for 'just roll enough sixes'. It may not be ASB because each step is possible yet unlikely, but it's functionally indistinguishable in that it produces most any event regardless of initial conditions.
 
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Sure, but nations survived worse. Even if they endure instability, with a strong ruler they could survive
Most nations didn't have a system of vassals that hated them , simply put even if Cortez gets killed the plague he leaves behind + the drought will cause chaos not as many would die since no colonial abuse but the Spanish might try for round two, still mexico would be hit hard I still except millions to die from these two but yes its not impossible having the Aztecs survive
 
Let's unpack the odds implied in this thing.
The Incan Empire survives ~350 years, at least in spirit. How many polities did that OTL? The answer is "a very select few".
Many states survived 350 years. I mean we are talking about Spain, who even with all their internal changes (going from Castile and their personal unions to modern Spain) and loss of empire is still around. Or for a non-Western example, the Ottoman Empire which spent centuries fighting against the Habsburgs before allying with them in one final war.
Then, this Incan Empire has to be doing well enough that it's politically worthy to intervene. This isn't particularly hard, but remember we're starting from "very unlikely" and only going down.
Then we add in the fact that this Empire has to do not just on the other side of the Ocean - but in a whole Ocean altogether. The chances this is politically viable or useful is... definitely not great (and we're starting from "less than very unlikely").
Then we add that there must be such a conflict (a WW2 analogue), and/or a world where such a conflict may arise. Neither is very likely - on top of the previous odds.
The latter is highly likely. Ever since the 17th century, European wars involved fighting in global theaters, even if it wasn't until WW1 that a western hemisphere nation sent troops to Europe (the US, and Brazil had plans and sent a small group of observers).
 
And it's at least trying—not shutting down the discussion with "well, it can't be done! Muh ASB!".

Welcome to any discussion revolving around New World states, especially the ones the Spanish conquered. I don't think it's unfair per se for people to have questions about obvious structural weaknesses in ex. the Aztec state that leads to their longterm survival, or even about the how of survival in a broad sense. But people can't suspend their disbelief enough to accept that it's 'handled' and that you can jump ahead say 200 years to a more relevant time where the AHC actually can be tackled, and start from there to discuss the original premise. You have to cross your ts, dot your is, present sources, and argue down every idiot in the thread referencing Guns, Germs, and Steel either directly or indirectly who are determined to act as if reading a few quotes from that book makes them qualified. And at that point you've gone offscript, the AHC lost in the void.

Let's go with the premise that the Inca are the easier state to have survive, and that they whether early conquistador colonialism as well as could be hoped . The trope I'm using to frame this is 'Britain's sidekick'. Except unlike Portugal, the Inca are far more geographically secure from Spain in the longterm.

The first 50 years are understandably hectic and fringe pieces/groups of the empire are shaved off or control lost but important diplomatic relationships and trade routes are established in exchange for Inca bullion to various Europeans for many of the material goods that they are missing, a gradual diffusion of opportunistic advisors and soldiers, etc. giving the Inca the tools needed to adapt their state geopolitically as a regional power.

The Inca 100 years later have started to rebound demographically, but were unable to escape the economic conditioning of mass labor shortages. The Mita has changed with the times, and the usage of farm animals for labor has become extensive due to necessity. Ambitious infrastructure works have gone the way of the dodo compared to the prior early Empire's construction boom, but despite it all the Inca stand steady if not tall, and are able to defend against European predation, largely from Spain as their nearest neighbor. Spanish-Inca geopolitical rivalry is firmly establish, pushing the Inca into the arms of England and Portugal that depend heavily on the threat of the Inca to restrain Spanish ambitions in Europe, forming a web of dependency that the Spanish seek to crush at sea.

150 years from first contact, the Inca have gotten demolished at sea, but have had good showings on land, finally adapted to the norms and traditions of their partners and rivals in war, and having developed their own strategies to mitigate Spanish might. Worse for the Spanish, their empire is rotting, they've stretched themselves too thin. The knives are out and the wolves are hungry for revenge for Spanish excess. Spain's New World empire while not partitioned, is leaned down heavily with much of South America lost to them between English, Portuguese, and Inca ambitions. The Inca begin to look outwards now that their realm isn't under imminent threat of local conflict and the large states in South America are nominal longstanding allies and begin investing in overseas trade.

200 years later, and Spanish military hegemony over the Inca is a distant memory. The Inca have shifted their focus to the seas and undermined Spanish routes to China trading bullion for valuable goods, and have become incredibly wealthy as a result. Inca geopolitical priorities have shifted from defense of the homeland to expansion and trade, as well as undermining Spain's last colonial holding, Mexico, by fostering indigenous revolts. That this is the only place the Inca provide resources for anti-colonialism goes without saying. Everywhere else, the Inca are no different a colonial power than any other. Inca presence is strong in the Pacific ocean, and the Straits of Magellan are firmly under Inca control to ensure a regular sea route to Europe to move Chinese goods for additional revenue.

250 years later, and the Spanish have rebounded somewhat but are in the middle of losing control over Mexico with Inca and British help. The loss of control has been decisive, and transporting + supplying armies in Mexico from Spain near impossible. The war has devolved into loyalists vs. revolutionaries + Inca and British supplies and axillaries, and has largely been a tremendous L for Spain. Still they refuse to concede that Mexico's been out of their for control for years and maintain a state of war and near unrestricted piracy against British and Inca shipping, an ironic twist of fate after England's flagrant piracy campaigns against Spain in the past. It's disruptive enough to the economies of both the British and the Inca that a coalition has been formed to end the Pirate Kingdom as the two have taken to referring to their adversary. Spanish resistance is fierce but the combined coalition has had naval hegemony for years. 10,000 Inca troops land outside Cadiz after prepping from Gibraltar and Ireland for the naval invasion alongside a large British army.
 
Depends on how you did it. The conquistadors had lots of local allies Nahua, Mixtec, Zapotec, and Maya. If they angered those allies earlier, they might not have had the support of tens of thousands of local warriors. Cortes and his men might have been made slaves when they landed. Maybe one of the jesuits would go too far and some of the crew might abuse some of the local women.

Cortes was not exactly popular with the locals. They just hated the Aztecs worse. He had some fights with the natives before he attacked the Azetcs.

The Aztecs were hated by the local tribes who they raided, enslaved, and turned into blood sacrifices. I could see the natives turning on Cortes, enslaving and torturing the conquistadors for their knowledge, taking their horses and steel and forming their own nation which would eventually fight the Aztecs possibly winning.

I would not think of them conquering the Spanish, but capturing a few of the Spanish ships through duplicity and eventually being able to go back to Europe with a diplomatic mission. The mission would be about keeping the foreigners out.
 
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The conquistadors had lots of local allies Nahua, Mixtec, Zapotec, and Maya. If they angered those allies earlier, they might not have had the support of tens of thousands of local warriors. Cortes and his men might have been made slaves when they landed. Maybe one of the jesuits would go too far and some of the crew might abuse some of the local women.
Hell, if the Tlaxcalans don't change their minds and try to ally with the Spanish, the conquest of Mexico ends right there. Cortez and all his pals get killed by Xicotencatl II.
 
Hell, if the Tlaxcalans don't change their minds and try to ally with the Spanish, the conquest of Mexico ends right there. Cortez and all his pals get killed by Xicotencatl II.

That wouldn't stop the next conquistador. Or the next one. Or the next one. Or the next one.

There were plenty of conquistadors that failed. We only remember the ones that succeeded.

Cortez was lucky to conquer the Aztecs so quickly. But the Aztecs (and every other mesoamerican polity in the early 1500s) were so weak that they were very likely to fall to European pressure sooner rather than later. They didn't have steel, horses, gunpowder, or sails. No matter what they do, significant amounts of their population are going to die from small pox and measles outbreaks. Not the 90% or whatever people cite that combines Spanish atrocities with death by disease but even a death rate of 30% is going to cause massive shockwaves that the Spanish or other Europeans will take advantage of.

Look at what happened to the Inca. Disease outbreak leads to civil war. Pizarro arrives and takes advantage of the civil war. Yes, Pizarro got lucky too. Even so, the best case scenario for the Inca is closer to "puppet state for a European Power" than it is "Imperial Power".

I feel like people massively overrate the ability of the Aztecs an Incas to resist European encroachment. Most native polities survived right up until enough Europeans decided they wanted them. Peoples like the Purepecha and the Muisca were conquered so fast and so easily they don't even get cool "Great Man" stories like Cortez and Pizarro with the Aztecs and Inca.

The best way for the Aztec or Inca to survive is to not be noticed by the Europeans for as long as possible. Or for the Europeans not to realize how rich they are and how easy it is to take those riches away. And that is going to get increasingly hard when the Europeans are sailing around the world.
 
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Look at what happened to the Inca. Disease outbreak leads to civil war. Pizarro arrives and takes advantage of the civil war. Yes, Pizarro got lucky too. Even so, the best case scenario for the Inca is closer to "puppet state for a European Power" than it is "Imperial Power".
yeah we have evidence there was no pandemic in 1527, it was just that pizaro came days after the civil war concluded
 
I LOVE this idea for a TL but it is going to take a lot of things to go right for the Aztecs/Incas. One solution might be for Huayna Capac to survive a few years longer so Pizarro is facing a united Inca Empire not one that's been going through a vicious civil war.
The Inca were comparatively quite technologically advanced. If they'd been able to capture a blacksmith and some horses I think they could easily have become a New World Ethiopia. Industrialization will produce major upheavals in Inca society, it'll probably spur further military expansion and war with the colonial powers, but none of these are insurmountable issues. Give them a few centuries and I could easily see them participating in an invasion of the Spanish mainland (though I don't know if they'd be able to launch an invasion solo.)
 
they also leave marks in short the great smallpox epidemic that killed the sapa inca well its unlikely IMO it ever occured based on the arguments given.

Even if what you say is true, it doesn't really undermine my point. If anything it strengthens it. The Inca were so weak that Pizarro managed to topple them without help from disease.
 
Even if what you say is true, it doesn't really undermine my point. If anything it strengthens it. The Inca were so weak that Pizarro managed to topple them without help from disease
Because he arrived days after a civil war and got extremely lucky that Atahualpa was in a festivity and decided not no bring a real army, and they kidnaped him Pizarro rolled 20s all around quite literally to have the fall of the inca you just have to make Pizarro arrive a little later or maybe de soto actions make Atahualpa decide to murder them instead of having big festival to show off.
 
There are 200000 Tlacxcalla and 300000 Aztecs. Cortes would have gotten nowhere without the Tlacxcalla. The Tlacxcalla are a democratic tribal group and the Aztec are an empire. They hate each other. A conquistador has to have an ally in this situation. If the Tlacxcalla got past the hatred of the Aztecs and took out the conquistadors stealing their horses and technology things might have been very different. The Tlacxcalla could have bought guns learned to make iron and ride horses and it might have been a different story. There might have been a conquered group of Aztecs and Spanish traders in gold and people. Not a nice story but a different one.

With iron armor, weapons, and horses, even with limited firearms, it becomes hard to conquer that many people. It becomes more like the Spanish would come in and trade glass beads and other trade goods initially rather than conquer them.
 
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Because he arrived days after a civil war and got extremely lucky that Atahualpa was in a festivity and decided not no bring a real army, and they kidnaped him Pizarro rolled 20s all around quite literally to have the fall of the inca you just have to make Pizarro arrive a little later or maybe de soto actions make Atahualpa decide to murder them instead of having big festival to show off.

Usually, when someone keeps rolling twenties that means they are playing with loaded dice.

Yes. Pizarro got lucky. If everything that happened was due to luck, he and Spanish would have gotten thrown out of South America not long after conquering the Inca. But they didn't. There were plenty of rebellions and even long term guerrilla warfare. But the Spanish clung tightly to control over the Viceroyalty of Peru. Why do you think that is?

If Pizarro had failed, someone else would have come along and conquered the Inca. There were plenty of conquistadors and wanna be conquistadors around. It would have changed the details and the timing but the Inca (and Aztec and whoever) were going to have a rough time of it unless something drastically different happened.

EDIT: I finally found who I was looking for. Aleixo Garcia. He tried (and spectacularly failed) to conquer the Inca in the name of Portugal a few years before Pizarro. We don't remember his expedition because it failed. But the point is, they kept trying. And they were going to keep trying until someone succeeded. Which they would because the technological disparity was too great.
 
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Yes. Pizarro got lucky. If everything that happened was due to luck, he and Spanish would have gotten thrown out of South America not long after conquering the Inca. But they didn't. There were plenty of rebellions and even long term guerrilla warfare. But the Spanish clung tightly to control over the Viceroyalty of Peru. Why do you think that is?
Because they got a foothold using the recent civil war Manco was their allied before he his revolt for example
If Pizarro had failed, someone else would have come along and conquered the Inca.
deterministic history at its finest why would I think the idea of trying to capture the inca would work also the while the spanish migth have allies they would not have the souther empire cheer them unlike the aztecs the inca did try to intigrate locals and also unlike the aztecs the nearest natural disaster was gonna be a volcano in 1600 you know 70 years after, the Spanish
EDIT: I finally found who I was looking for. Aleixo Garcia. He tried (and spectacularly failed) to conquer the Inca in the name of Portugal a few years before Pizarro. We don't remember his expedition because it failed. But the point is, they kept trying. And they were going to keep trying until someone succeeded. Which they would because the technological disparity was too great.
Alexio tried with Guarani invasion and the Guariani were fierce winning some battles until the inca came with reinforcements and crushed them, in a confrontation even with allied tribes the inca could have smashed any Spanish army hence the best case scenario was kidnap the emperor which I just want to consider what you proposal is? the spanish sent many delegations to meet the sapa Inca until they kidnap him?

or do think the spanish conquer the inca due to the plagues? for one the plagues were made worse by actions of the colonials which in this world they don't occur even with the decapitation of the empire giving them 3 years, Manco still nearly kicked the spanish of cuzco and would have forced them to retreat to Lima if Manco after all that happened did that himself I really want to know how a spanish army with none of the advantages of otl 1536 conquers the empire if they failed to kidnap Atahualpa
 
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Manco
Because they got a foothold using the recent civil war Manco was their allied before he his revolt for example

deterministic history at its finest why would I think the idea of trying to capture the inca would work also the while the spanish migth have allies they would not have the souther empire cheer them unlike the aztecs the inca did try to intigrate locals and also unlike the aztecs the nearest natural disaster was gonna be a volcano in 1600 you know 70 years after, the Spanish

Alexio tried with Guarani invasion and the Guariani were fierce winning some battles until the inca came with reinforcements and crushed them, in a confrontation even with allied tribes the inca could have smashed any Spanish army hence the best case scenario was kidnap the emperor which I just want to consider what you proposal is? the spanish sent many delegations to meet the sapa Inca until they kidnap him?

or do think the spanish conquer the inca due to the plagues? for one the plagues were made worse by actions of the colonials which in this world they don't occur even with the decapitation of the empire giving them 3 years, Manco still nearly kicked the spanish of cuzco and would have forced them to retreat to Lima if Manco after all that happened did that himself I really want to know how a spanish army with none of the advantages of otl 1536 conquers the empire if they failed to kidnap Atahualpa

I agree. The Inca are highly likely to take some sort of L on first contact. They're likely to lose their first battles, and their first war. But the crumpling that happened after Atahualpa's capture may as well have been god gift wrapping the Sapa Inca to the Spanish. There is no better scenario for toppling the whole state and they got handed the opportunity on the first interaction, props to Pizarro for being ballsy enough to pull it off.

So given the Inca response after initial exposure shock wore off, I feel pretty damn good about a protracted campaign against the Inca leading to a negotiated settlement eventually. The first attempt to reach the Inca will always have disproportionate advantages on their side. The next time the Inca will understand Spanish character
 
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