AHC: A more democratic and progressive Japan (that would be part of the WWII Allies or an equivalent faction)

[Pipcard]

What do you think would be a reasonable PoD to have a Japan that:

- has a stronger democratic tradition so it doesn't taken over by extreme militarists in times of economic depression
- would be part of the victorious Allied Powers in WWII (assuming minimal butterflies), or an analogous faction that is fighting against a group of fascist countries
- has more progressive social institutions in the modern day (i.e. less gender inequality and racial discrimination, more acceptance of immigration, etc.)

 

[Deleted member 147978]

What do you think would be a reasonable PoD to have a Japan that:

- has a stronger democratic tradition so it doesn't taken over by extreme militarists in times of economic depression
- would be part of the victorious Allied Powers in WWII (assuming minimal butterflies)
- has more progressive social institutions (i.e. less gender inequality and racial discrimination)

You might want to bring your post to the post 1900 forum.

 

[Pipcard]

You might want to bring your post to the post 1900 forum.

This is why a pre-1900 PoD is needed, and I am not interested in the option in which the Great Depression has to be averted to prevent a ultra-militaristic Japan.

Well Japan actually was a relatively liberal Parliamentary Democracy during the Taishō period of 1912-1926.

What ended up leading to the militarism and Ultra-Nationalism was the economic collapse and subsequent political changes of the Great Depression.

In the end their are two options, though one would require a late 19th century PoD.

A. Have Japan become a full Parliamentary Democracy earlier, with the Diet gaining full power while the Oligarchs and Genrō are deprived of power (which is what happened OTL), thereby giving the Parliamentary system and Democracy longer to root themselves as fundamental and core parts of government.

B. Have the Great Depression not happen, happen later or affect Japan in such a way that while it is hurt, it's not as bad as everyone else and it uses the period to focus on Economic, rather than military/territory growth.

 

[iori]

This is why a pre-1900 PoD is needed, and I am not interested in the option in which the Great Depression has to be averted to prevent a ultra-militaristic Japan.

I'm confused how something I said in a different thread from 11 years ago ended-up here.

 

[Pipcard]

I'm confused how something I said in a different thread from 11 years ago ended-up here.

I am explaining why this alternate history challenge is in the Before 1900 section.

I am also wondering exactly how Japan would become a full parliamentary democracy with less oligarchal influence in the first place. What would be the catalyst or impetus for that, since it can't just happen for no reason.

 

[iori]

I am explaining why this alternate history challenge is in the Before 1900 section.

I am also wondering exactly how Japan would become a full parliamentary democracy with less oligarchal influence in the first place. What would be the catalyst or impetus for that, since it can't just happen for no reason.

Reading my post I was more saying that without the Great Depression democracy would have longer to become established and thus more likely not weather things.

Whenever a new system (even ones that are objectively good) is established it's inherently viewed with some suspicion by people and if something bad happens relatively soon after a lot of people are going to instinctually want the old system which they view (usually incorrectly) as better at handling things.

 

[Pipcard]

Reading my post I was more saying that without the Great Depression democracy would have longer to become established and thus more likely not weather things.

Whenever a new system (even ones that are objectively good) is established it's inherently viewed with some suspicion by people and if something bad happens relatively soon after a lot of people are going to instinctually want the old system which they view (usually incorrectly) as better at handling things.

I understand that, but I was asking about how Option A would happen, not Option B.

How could the Freedom and People's Rights Movement had more power and influence?

The Freedom and People's Rights Movement... was a Japanese political and social movement for democracy in the 1880s. It pursued the formation of an elected legislature, revision of the Unequal Treaties with the United States and European countries, the institution of civil rights, and the reduction of centralized taxation. The Movement prompted the Meiji government to establish a constitution in 1889 and a diet in 1890; on the other hand, it failed to loosen the control of the central government and its demand for true democracy remained unfulfilled, with ultimate power continuing to reside in the Meiji (Chōshū–Satsuma) oligarchy because, among other limitations, under the Meiji Constitution, the first election law enfranchised only men who paid a substantial amount in property taxes, as a result of the Land Tax Reform in 1873.

Or the Meiji Constitution more based on the British or American Constitution instead of the Prussian Constitution?

On October 21, 1881, Itō Hirobumi was appointed to chair a government bureau to research various forms of constitutional government, and in 1882, Itō led an overseas mission to observe and study various systems first-hand. The United States Constitution was rejected as too liberal. The French and Spanish models were rejected as tending toward despotism. The Reichstag and legal structures of the German Empire, particularly that of Prussia, proved to be of the most interest to the Constitutional Study Mission. Influence was also drawn from the British Westminster system, although it was considered as being unwieldy and granting too much power to Parliament.

Or a Japan that was less prone to ultra-militarism? I understand that the Japanese government followed imperialism because that is what other major powers were doing at the time, but how could Japan have been relatively less cruel (i.e. not as bad as Nazi Germany)?

The military had a strong influence on Japanese society from the Meiji Restoration. Almost all leaders in Japanese society during the Meiji period (whether in the military, politics or business) were ex-samurai or descendants of samurai, and shared a set of values and outlooks. The early Meiji government viewed Japan as threatened by western imperialism, and one of the prime motivations for the Fukoku Kyohei policy was to strengthen Japan's economic and industrial foundations, so that a strong military could be built to defend Japan against outside powers.