AHC: A Mirror Reflection of Prussia in Venice

[John7755 يوحنا]

The Challenge if you choose to accept it, is to with a POD in 1360 CE, is to have a scenario wherein the Venetian Republic is seen as a near synonym to Prussia in terms of:

Restrictions: Cannot create an Italy analogue, only if the analogue is a collection of vassals and subordinates. Venice must remain distinct as an entity from the following states; Papacy-Papal States, Naples, Milan, Florence and Savoy.

1.Military discipline
2.Martial prowess at land and for Venice, at sea
3. A large standing army
4. A general league of subordinates and vassals
5. Must have a territory including (by 1900, having held):

-Venice metropole
-Istria
-Trieste
-Fiume
-Veglia
-Ragusa
-Padua
-Verona
-South-Tyrol
-Aquilia
- Brescia
-Bergamo
- Ravenna
-Crete
-Naxos islands
-Durazzo

6. As a final and most difficult achievement; have the Republic of Venice as a leading industrial power by the year 1900. This can be done with any acquisition within reason, what would be the most likely?


Alternatively, what would be the board's opinion regarding the expansion of the Venetian realm for needed stability, remaining in strong power in Europe and likewise, to become an industrial power?

 

[Nivek]

The Challenge if you choose to accept it, is to with a POD in 1360 CE, is to have a scenario wherein the Venetian Republic is seen as a near synonym to Prussia in terms of:

Restrictions: Cannot create an Italy analogue, only if the analogue is a collection of vassals and subordinates. Venice must remain distinct as an entity from the following states; Papacy-Papal States, Naples, Milan, Florence and Savoy.

1.Military discipline
2.Martial prowess at land and for Venice, at sea
3. A large standing army
4. A general league of subordinates and vassals
5. Must have a territory including (by 1900, having held):

-Venice metropole
-Istria
-Trieste
-Fiume
-Veglia
-Ragusa
-Padua
-Verona
-South-Tyrol
-Aquilia
- Brescia
-Bergamo
- Ravenna
-Crete
-Naxos islands
-Durazzo

6. As a final and most difficult achievement; have the Republic of Venice as a leading industrial power by the year 1900. This can be done with any acquisition within reason, what would be the most likely?


Alternatively, what would be the board's opinion regarding the expansion of the Venetian realm for needed stability, remaining in strong power in Europe and likewise, to become an industrial power?

Maybe the Dux post 4th crusader see they could be as fucked as the byzantines and later the borgia and other scarred them too much and they slowly build an 'navy and marines with a merchant nation' and thanks alliance of convenience(for and against hasburg and ottomans respectly) they become the 'balkan mediator/shield' in europe?

 

[The Undead Martyr]

Adding Milan would IMVHO do a lot to help here, and the Emilia as well, possibly Genoa and Piedmont up to at least the Alps. That is a strong defensible border and control over Padania gives a state control over the industrial triangle, which is a solid foundation for a netherland style state, which in turn opens the possibility of a strong professional army much lile the dutch gained by necessity during the early modern era (not an impossible thing- both Britain and the US started as primarily naval and commercial powers and ended up fielding strong armies by stint of the incidental burdens of empire, Venice could quite easily end up the same if they prove more successful) Adding Milan to Venice also reduces the odds of a transalpine invasion upsetting the apple cart.....
Bosnia would come later, and eventually give some resources (coal and iron, though admittedly much poorer). Does Anatolia have resources? If anything maybe the Ukraine would be a natural and probably most valuable and accessible colony (aside from the cliched Egypt->Yemen->India and beyond) assuming Constantinople can be colonized, and the Venetians did have outposts there. Ukraine gives them slaves, grain, coal, steel, lumber, access to Russian resources and markets....

Strangle the Ottomans, nerf Hungary, keep France too busy with Spain or England to bother invading Italy- say the Portuguese inherit Castille instead of aragon, and/or the Trastamara survive- and Burgundy does too, to keep France busy. If say Tamerlane can destroy the Osman dynasty that creates a natural vacuum for venice to exploit.

 

[UnaiB]

@Irene

 

[Jürgen]

Republics was outcompeted by monarchies and monarchies with strong estates was outcompeted by absolute ones in the early modern era. If Venice is going to continue to be a strong international actor, it need to centralize power and centralize under one family with absolute power and political legitimacy.

 

[Lucius Verus]

Its a good time for Venice, expanded upon in my TL as:

The Papacy was going to be busy fighting between the Cardinals and Pope.

The French are busy until the late 1400s with the English and regional nobles.

Austria is divided among three houses till the late 1400s.

Milan, despite their seemingly inevitable domination is about to implode with the unexpected death of the Great Serpent.

Spain is not a thing yet while Castile is looking South.

Timur will come knocking out the Ottomans, and were only stop IOTL when Genoa and Venice refused to ferry them.

Hungary, has traditional tensions between high nobles, lower nobility, and foriegn kings. It can serve as a good enemy, especially as they can't win decisive victories without building and manning a good fleet.

Only one POD is needed within Venice, there's plenty of time to expand and consolidate so that Venice is heavy hitter match by the late 1400s.

As for stability, Venice had the unique condition of an unified aristocracy. It definitely could be more porous, especially if it plans to keep and use new lands to the utmost.

There's a huge list of institutions required for a rational and focused society, I'll just hazard to say that Venice was on-paper more rational and focused than most feudal monarchies of the day.

In terms of industry, Kosovo is great (low-sulphur, high phosphorus coal), right beside iron ore deposits, and several other industrial minerals plus silver. The problem is one of transport and security, they need to secure it from Hungary, bandits, and Turks while getting a canal in.

In terms of manpower and subjects, Po Valley, Greece, pre-Ottaman invasion Balkans are all good easily accessible sources.

Egypt is a great agricultural hinterland (roughly the size of Italy), Ukraine is a good spot if they were pacified (dependent on employing the advantages of massed gunpowder vs horse archers)- otherwise just a source of slaves, horses, and furs.

Republics was outcompeted by monarchies and monarchies with strong estates was outcompeted by absolute ones in the early modern era. If Venice is going to continue to be a strong international actor, it need to centralize power and centralize under one family with absolute power and political legitimacy.

And stumble horribly when a poor Patriarch takes power, along with all the problems that strongman rule creates (the need to personally control the military, inability to promote people of merit for fear of a coup). England, the Netherlands, pre-15th century Hungary, pre-commune revolt Castile, the estates general of France; there are countless examples of republican institutions at the time.

As for power, the monarchies had more power because they ruled over more land, men, and resources evident post-15th century when they centralized. Acre for acre, subject for subject, lira for lira, the merchant Republics were more efficient at leveraging their resources and punching above their weight, the decline is relative and shouldn't be a problem in the case of an expansionist Republic. Centralization of power is nice, only if the leadership is competent and hereditary oligarchies are a matter of chance.