AHC: A Kido Butai Carrier survives WWII

[anon_user]

With a PoD no earlier than December 10, 1941, try to have at least one of the six carriers (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku) to strike Pearl Harbor survive the war. Obviously, the carrier doesn't need to be in good condition - it can be rusting away at Yokohama - but it does need to make it through the war intact.
Bonus points if it doesn't get expended in postwar nuclear testing, but instead gets preserved as a museum.

 

[HMS Warspite]

With a PoD no earlier than December 10, 1941, try to have at least one of the six carriers (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku) to strike Pearl Harbor survive the war. Obviously, the carrier doesn't need to be in good condition - it can be rusting away at Yokohama - but it does need to make it through the war intact.
Bonus points if it doesn't get expended in postwar nuclear testing, but instead gets preserved as a museum.

Basically the last remainingcarrier, Zuikaku was not realy needed during the battle at Leyte, as the IJN already lacked the needed aircraft and aviators to equip all the remaining carriers with a usefull airgroup. The actual Northern Attack group with Zuikaku and the leightweight Zuiho, Chitose and Ciyoda barely had 50 aircraft in total, which all could theoretically be concentrated in two CVL's alone. (even not fully then.) By leaving Zuikaku in the home waters, and perhaps a CVL as well, valuable fuel would be saved, which was already on short supply anyway. Zuikaku, with her very powerfull and thirsty engines was a fuelhogg anyway, so her absense would tactically and strategically make sense.

With the Zuikaku left in Japan, possible in the northern regions, to keep her away from preying eyes as good as possible, could have saved the ship from too much unwanted attention, just like Junyo an Ryuho. The USA already knew the IJN was not longer capable of deploying full sized airgroups anymore, and certainly not from carriers, given the lack of time put into flighttraining of the aviators in the later waryears, so Zuikaku was a toothless tiger anyway, as were all IJN carriers after since mid 1944 basically.

 

[David S Poepoe]

I don't think at that time, 1945-1950, the Japanese wanted anything to do with memorializing the war. There were a few carriers that were used as transports to bring Japanese troops back home from such places as Indochina and the Philippines and such. After they completed their jobs they were scrapped.

 

[sharlin]

If the USN found an even abandoned carrier sitting off shore she'd be bombed and rocketed and probably sunk in shallow water like the Ise and Hyuga, only to be raised and scrapped.

 

[juanml82]

Maybe the Americans can turn it into an American museum, but they are more likely to use it in nuclear weapons test.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Yeah, especially if it participated in Pearl Harbor. Look at what they did to the Nagato

 

[MikeTurcotte]

Maybe the Americans can turn it into an American museum, but they are more likely to use it in nuclear weapons test.

Agreed.

Mike Turcotte

 

[Kome]

Maybe the Americans can turn it into an American museum, but they are more likely to use it in nuclear weapons test.

I was thinking it would be neat if it was given to the Soviets/KMT/Taiwan/Dutch/French as reparations but yeah, nuclear test target is more likely.

 

[Adler]

Hmm. Let's say Zuikaku is not spent at Leyte. Instead she is repaired at Yokohama and could also escape the Kure bombings. Knowing about the planned invasion the Japanese command decided to keep a force in reserve, either to be used as kamikaze unit or to have at least a basic force for defending the islands after the war. So they base this small fleet, Zuikaku, Nagato, an Unryu class carrier, some cruisers and destroyers in Hokkaido.

Then nukes and Soviet declaration of war. Stalin tries to get the Kurils and Hokkaido. With 30 US built landing craft the Soviets try to invade the Kurils, not aware, that the rests of the Japanese fleet were there (perhaps the US did not tell them, perhaps it was indeed a secret for them as well). Anyway, the Soviet marines could land, but eventually the Japanese fleet appears and sinks all Soviet ships. The few destroyers of the Pacific fleet make a daring attack but were sunk as well. However, some Soviet subs manage to hit all three capital ships. However, all were set aground in shallow waters and could be used as coastal batteries resp. air fields.

Soon after the Japanese surrender. Stalin is furious and demands the Kurils. He is said, he can have them, if he can take them until the US came. As he has no means to do so, he does no attempt, knowing too well, that the Japanese would fight, regardless if there were a surrender.

Shortly after the US forces arrived there and the local commander surrendered. As the US feared about a new Soviet attack, they take over the three capital ships. USS Nagato, USS Zuikaku and USS Unryu. They want to use them only until own defense systems arrived. Then the ships should be used as nuclear bomb targets or being scrapped. But eventually they were not put out of duty until after the Bikini bomb trials, and after they were half forgotten.

In 1950 the USN tried to find a scrap metal buyer for them, but a Japanese petition was made to preserve them as museum ships, a petition, which is joined by US Admirals like Nimitz. Only little later the Korea war breaks out and Japan could rearm. "For the defense of the Kuril islands" the ships were given back to Japan, after being repaired. They were only allowed to be used between 40° and 60° N and 150° and 160°E, "in case of emergency" (or with US okay) in Japanese Home waters.

In the 1960s the ships are too old and become finally museum ships. They are known as the three "Defenders of the North", "Stalin's nightmare" or "Saviours of the Kurils".

Adler

 

[David S Poepoe]

Not likely. However, you do have a future writing action-adventure stories. Sort of reminds me of the 'Last Carrier' series that came out long ago and the less said about that the better.

 

[joea64]

Not likely. However, you do have a future writing action-adventure stories. Sort of reminds me of the 'Last Carrier' series that came out long ago and the less said about that the better.

The Seventh Carrier series by Peter Albano. The concept wasn't bad, in an ASB kind of way, but my God, the writing gives formulaic, cookie-cutter and cut-and-paste bad names.

 

[David S Poepoe]

The Seventh Carrier series by Peter Albano. The concept wasn't bad, in an ASB kind of way, but my God, the writing gives formulaic, cookie-cutter and cut-and-paste bad names.

Thats it. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Adler]

Not likely. However, you do have a future writing action-adventure stories. Sort of reminds me of the 'Last Carrier' series that came out long ago and the less said about that the better.

I never said it was likely. I only made a possible move. The problem with AH is, it must totally fit. Normal history has not this problem. BTW, this is not from me. But it is damn right.

Adler

 

[Riain]

A Soviet Union which manages to get an KB carrier and the Graf Spee home would make for a very interesting Cold War opponent.

 

[CalBear]

A Soviet Union which manages to get an KB carrier and the Graf Spee home would make for a very interesting Cold War opponent.

Why?

One carrier (with some rather harsh miles under the keel) that is incapable of operating heavyweight aircraft and a heavy cruiser with delusions of grandeur aren't going to achive anything except being Navy Crosses waiting to happen.

 

[Kome]

A Soviet Union which manages to get an KB carrier and the Graf Spee home would make for a very interesting Cold War opponent.

The Soviets might learn a tidbit about carrier design from the Japanese carrier. They might put it into service for war games as well (training for how to deal with carriers), although operating costs would be high for little gain.

Eventually it'll ether end up scrapped or sunk as a nuclear target for bragging rights ("Imagine this is your carrier. Now this is our bomb!")

 

[Garrison]

Maybe the Americans can turn it into an American museum, but they are more likely to use it in nuclear weapons test.

That was my first thought, it would end its days off Bikini Atoll or some such.

 

[DD951]

There actually was one Japanese fleet carrier that survived the war in operational condition (or at least as operational as an otherwise perfectly good & intact carrier can be without an air group,) the Katsuragi, and under the direction of the US occupying authorities, the ship was disarmed, several of the boilers disabled, & about a third of the flight deck ripped up, before the ship was used as a transport to repatriate Japanese soldiers & civilians from all across the Pacific for a couple years before being scrapped in 1947.

The US was pretty insistent on making sure that major warships & any advanced technology the Japanese had didn't get into Soviet hands, including expending several submarines as targets before the USN had completed their evaluation of them, including the I-401 submarine carriers & the high-speed I-201 class boats (only the German Type XVII, one of the Walther-cycle designs had better underwater performance) to defeat Soviet demands for samples. All the Soviets got out of the IJN as prizes were a few destroyers, destroyer escorts, & patrol craft.

Had one of KB's carriers, say Zuikaku, managed to survive the war, than after the USN had finished their technical evaluation of her, than she'll either be used as a repatriation transport like Katsuragi, scrapped, or sunk as a target in short order so that the Soviets won't get a chance to make a claim on her, though in the latter two cases, depending on the timeframe, she might be briefly put on display as a trophy in Hawaii and/or the west coast.

 

[The Kiat]

Maybe the Americans can turn it into an American museum, but they are more likely to use it in nuclear weapons test.

I'd like to take it as a trophy, but it probably would be reduced to target practice.

 

[hairysamarian]

There actually was one Japanese fleet carrier that survived the war in operational condition (or at least as operational as an otherwise perfectly good & intact carrier can be without an air group,)

Heavily damaged, actually, apparently from American air strikes. It required repairs to be used as a transport. It was still afloat, true enough, but "operational" and "perfectly good and intact" are not accurate.