AHC: A Bigger Russian Empire

[British Republic]

I have a challenge in relation to AH:

With a POD from as early as 1547, how can you develop the Russian Empire to its OTL size plus the following:

• Persian Azerbaijan
• Ottoman Armenia
• East Turkistan
• Mongolia (Inner and Outer)
• Manchuria
• Constantinople

(Any areas I have missed out?)

I also have a another challenge, how can you make sure (in terms of PODs) it remains that size to the present day? Or is that ASB?

 

[Grey Wolf]

In terms of what you've missed out the most glaring is Sinkiang, where Russia actually ruled over Kashgaria for a number of years in the late 19th century

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

In terms of what you've missed out the most glaring is Sinkiang, where Russia actually ruled over Kashgaria for a number of years in the late 19th century

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

"East Turkestan" generally refers to Sinkiang.

In regards to the OP's request, I'm assuming you're meaning those that can be held semi-permanently? I think that Russia could have taken control of Korea, though only temporarily, and parts of Afghanistan could probably have been conquered (primarily the Tajik and Uzbek areas), although too much and the British would've (rightly) freaked out.

I think that the Manchuria and Inner Mongolia idea could've been done if the Russians had been doubly duplicitous. As it was, China ceded land North of the Amur river to Russia in exchange for help against the British and French, which didn't materialise. If the Chinese reacted with pogroms against Russians in China (this may require a PoD causing more Russians to be in China, but IIRC, quite a few were in Manchuria), then the Russians could plausibly intervene. Same goes if the Trans-Siberian Railway was attacked. The British used the mere (small) possibility of an attack on the Suez Canal to intervene against Col. Arabi in Egypt, I don't see why the Russians couldn't use the same excuse in a region where the British and French were conspicuously absent and the Japanese aren't strong enough to do anything about it. East Turkestan was de facto Russian for a period anyway. That can be wrenched from Chinese control in a punitive expedition against [insert supposedly threatening local tribe here] like the French did in Tunisia.

Persian Azerbaijan is also quite easy, IMO. Simply have some sort of agreement between the British and the Russians where the Russians get Azerbaijan in exchange for allowing the British a free hand in the internal affairs of Persia. Armenia can be taken in some reimagining of the Treaty of San Stefano, where Russia doesn't get an uber-Bulgaria, but does gain something in Turkish Armenia.

In short, I think these can all be achieved with a post-1800 PoD.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Oh sorry, I never heard Sinkiang called 'East Turkestan' before! I knew it had 2 large areas - Dzungaria and Kashgaria, and IIRC is the home of Uighurs. But I never thought of it being called 'East Turkestan' - does it even border Turkestan? I need to review my geography of central Asia, its a bit fuzzy!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

Oh sorry, I never heard Sinkiang called 'East Turkestan' before! I knew it had 2 large areas - Dzungaria and Kashgaria, and IIRC is the home of Uighurs. But I never thought of it being called 'East Turkestan' - does it even border Turkestan? I need to review my geography of central Asia, its a bit fuzzy!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Yeah, you're right about all that stuff. Turkestan is a somewhat inaccurate European moniker for what we would generally refer to as the former Central Asian SSRs (sometimes, but not always excluding Kazakhstan). It sorta replaced the term 'Tartary', as that also included Southern Russia and most of Ukraine, but became innaccurate when East Slavs settled the area en masse. East Turkestan does kinda make sense though, since the Uighurs speak a Turkic tongue.

No worries!

 

[British Republic]

In terms of what you've missed out the most glaring is Sinkiang, where Russia actually ruled over Kashgaria for a number of years in the late 19th century

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I refer to Sinkiang as East Turkistan or as it is now called Xinjiang...

 

[British Republic]

In regards to the OP's request, I'm assuming you're meaning those that can be held semi-permanently?

Those (with a POD from 1547), that can be held to this day in some form...

I think that Russia could have taken control of Korea, though only temporarily, and parts of Afghanistan could probably have been conquered (primarily the Tajik and Uzbek areas), although too much and the British would've (rightly) freaked out.

I did consider the Tajik and Uzbek as well, however since Afghanistan is not a easy place to annex, I orginally discounted it...

I think that the Manchuria and Inner Mongolia idea could've been done if the Russians had been doubly duplicitous. As it was, China ceded land North of the Amur river to Russia in exchange for help against the British and French, which didn't materialise. If the Chinese reacted with pogroms against Russians in China (this may require a PoD causing more Russians to be in China, but IIRC, quite a few were in Manchuria), then the Russians could plausibly intervene. Same goes if the Trans-Siberian Railway was attacked. The British used the mere (small) possibility of an attack on the Suez Canal to intervene against Col. Arabi in Egypt, I don't see why the Russians couldn't use the same excuse in a region where the British and French were conspicuously absent and the Japanese aren't strong enough to do anything about it. East Turkestan was de facto Russian for a period anyway. That can be wrenched from Chinese control in a punitive expedition against [insert supposedly threatening local tribe here] like the French did in Tunisia.

Persian Azerbaijan is also quite easy, IMO. Simply have some sort of agreement between the British and the Russians where the Russians get Azerbaijan in exchange for allowing the British a free hand in the internal affairs of Persia. Armenia can be taken in some reimagining of the Treaty of San Stefano, where Russia doesn't get an uber-Bulgaria, but does gain something in Turkish Armenia.

Very good points, how long can Russia hold onto those regions though?

Also with a different Treaty of San Stefano, how would it affect Bulgaria and what would be the reaction of other European powers...

 

[pattersonautobody]

Keeping Alaska helps, but it is interesting that a more aggressive foreign policy in the East could have made Russia massive. Have Peter the Great get rid of serfdom and modernize the Russian economy, and it isn't hard to see RUssia occupy Korea and perhaps Manchuria, giving them one of the largest economies in the world ATL.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

Very good points, how long can Russia hold onto those regions though?

Well, given that this butterflies away the Russian Revolution, they could theoretically be held indefinitely. Manchuria has the biggest population of all those areas, but is also the easiest to hold with modern weaponry due to terrain factors. Persian Azerbaijan and Turkish Armenia would be the hardest to hold in terms of terrain, but the Armenians are likely to be pro-Russian, and historical Azerbaijani populations under Russian rule were never very rebellious. Don't know if that would be the case in Persia, as many of the Persian ruling class were of Azerbaijani extraction, but I can't see such a strong desire to take the area back as to risk a fight with the world's largest nation.

By the way, this should be in the pre-1900, not post-1900 board. Just saying (I'm sure a moderator will move it for you if you ask them )

 

[British Republic]

Keeping Alaska helps

Is that posibble?

but it is interesting that a more aggressive foreign policy in the East could have made Russia massive. Have Peter the Great get rid of serfdom and modernize the Russian economy, and it isn't hard to see RUssia occupy Korea and perhaps Manchuria, giving them one of the largest economies in the world ATL.

Well it would mean that Peter the Great's countribution to be better Russia would be even more so.

Would this also mean that Russia becomes a economic superpower earlier and to a larger extent?

 

[British Republic]

Well, given that this butterflies away the Russian Revolution, they could theoretically be held indefinitely. Manchuria has the biggest population of all those areas, but is also the easiest to hold with modern weaponry due to terrain factors. Persian Azerbaijan and Turkish Armenia would be the hardest to hold in terms of terrain, but the Armenians are likely to be pro-Russian, and historical Azerbaijani populations under Russian rule were never very rebellious. Don't know if that would be the case in Persia, as many of the Persian ruling class were of Azerbaijani extraction, but I can't see such a strong desire to take the area back as to risk a fight with the world's largest nation.

If the Russians continue to modernise their poltical systems, perhaps some sort of Federal System would have evolved to have Armenia and Azerbaijan as federal states?

By the way, this should be in the pre-1900, not post-1900 board. Just saying (I'm sure a moderator will move it for you if you ask them )

How do I ask?

I was not sure where to put since my POD is quite extensive?

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

Perhaps a federal system could have emerged, but I doubt it with a post-1800 PoD, given nationalism (and some Russians would probably think that the federal system dispropotionately represents non-ethnic Russians).

I would suggest messaging CalBear, he is one of the more prominent admins at this forum. It would go in pre-1900. It generally goes along the lines of when the PoD is. So, for example, if the majority of the effects of the PoD are in the 1900s, but the PoD itself is in 1897, it still goes in 'Before 1900'.

 

[British Republic]

Perhaps a federal system could have emerged, but I doubt it with a post-1800 PoD, given nationalism (and some Russians would probably think that the federal system dispropotionately represents non-ethnic Russians).

The POD I am suggesting is from 1547 (when the Tsardom of Russia would be formed)

I would suggest messaging CalBear, he is one of the more prominent admins at this forum. It would go in pre-1900. It generally goes along the lines of when the PoD is. So, for example, if the majority of the effects of the PoD are in the 1900s, but the PoD itself is in 1897, it still goes in 'Before 1900'.

Before 1900 it is...

Do I directly contact him for this to happen?

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

He may do it himself, but the only definitive way is to ask him to move it. That way you know that he has noticed.

 

[British Republic]

He may do it himself, but the only definitive way is to ask him to move it. That way you know that he has noticed.

I have sent a PM to him about this...

 

[mlp]

aand moved!
Maybe aggressive Far East policy interprets itself into the colonisation of Hawaii?

 

[British Republic]

aand moved!
Maybe aggressive Far East policy interprets itself into the colonisation of Hawaii?

Is that posibble with a Pre-1800 POD?

 

[Grey Wolf]

The thing with Peter The Great is, he was faced with whether he wanted Russia to be an Asian power, or to modernise and become a European power, which required a focus on Europe, and access to the sea.

Catherine The Great might be a better place to look, she even funded too-small expeditions against Persia. If she had put more heart into it, then maybe

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[British Republic]

The thing with Peter The Great is, he was faced with whether he wanted Russia to be an Asian power, or to modernise and become a European power, which required a focus on Europe, and access to the sea.

Catherine The Great might be a better place to look, she even funded too-small expeditions against Persia. If she had put more heart into it, then maybe

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Perhaps they could focus on Asia First and then return to Europe?

 

[mlp]

Perhaps they could focus on Asia First and then return to Europe?

exactly.