AH Poll: Which Power in 1400, With Most Potential to rule Europe or the Mediterranean

Which of these is most likely to meet the above description with a POD of 1400?

  • The Ottoman Empire

  • The Papacy

  • The Burji Mamluks

  • The Golden Horde

  • The Empire of Timur

  • The Holy Roman Empire (any dynasty or state within it)

  • The Serene Republic of Venice

  • The Kingdom of France

  • The Kingdom of Aragon

  • The Kingdom of England

  • The Kingdom of Portugal

  • The Kingdom of Castile

  • The Duchy of Burgundy

  • The Kingdom of Poland

  • The Eastern Empire (Byzantium)

  • The Grand Duchy of Lithuania

  • The Republic of Novgorod

  • The Grand Principality of Muscovy

  • The Republic of Genoa

  • The Kalmar Union (either of the three members)


Results are only viewable after voting.
The Poll is with a POD of 1400 (we can push back 50 years or push up 50 years depending upon circumstance) and with an ending date of 1700 (the hegemony over Europe or the Mediterranean must be completed by 1700, so no Napoleonic era styled situations), to choose among those in the poll, which country was most likely to either:

1. Form an hegemony across Europe. That is, either they rule indirectly through a series of vassals or tributaries all of Europe or they rule these lands directly. Whichever is most likely. Defining Europe: we refer to the lands beginning in Portugal and ending at the Kingdom of Poland, thus we refer to a limited Europe; Europe as in the Latin world if you will.

2. Form an hegemony across the Mediterranean. Namely, that said power is able to make clients, vassals or directly rule the entirety of the sea, in a manner resembling the Roman Empire of 120 CE.

Note, exceptions can be made by powers. For instance, the Papacy can achieve this goal if every monarch submits to Papal decrees regarding acceptance of Papal vassalage.
 
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None. Without some type of ASB change in military technology no state in 1400 could achieve this type of hegemony as evidenced by the fact that none even came close. Perhaps the closest was Charles of Castile (who became Emperor Charles V). However, his control over the HRE was limited at best and he never controlled France, England, Poland, the Balkans etc. The other "possible" candidate is the Ottoman Empire who did control the Eastern Mediterranean. However, they never seriously threatened Italy, France or Spain. The Papacy was hopelessly weakened by this point and had been for a century or more.
 
If the Ottomans had concentrated all resources towards the Med instead of wasting much in Hungary and Persia they could've come close, but I don't think it would be complete.
 
None. Without some type of ASB change in military technology no state in 1400 could achieve this type of hegemony as evidenced by the fact that none even came close. Perhaps the closest was Charles of Castile (who became Emperor Charles V). However, his control over the HRE was limited at best and he never controlled France, England, Poland, the Balkans etc. The other "possible" candidate is the Ottoman Empire who did control the Eastern Mediterranean. However, they never seriously threatened Italy, France or Spain. The Papacy was hopelessly weakened by this point and had been for a century or more.

One can easily argue that the situation in other periods when universal emerged were of similar quality. The Assyrian Empire was faced with insurmountable issues in its rise to power and it lacked even many of the potential claims that these powers I listed have. The Roman Empire is similar, it rose to power against battle tested cultures of diverse quality. The Achaemenid empire rose to power in a series of conflicts that saw it conquer an empire of size similar to the size of Europe despite established and powerful entities existing between them and their goal.

Regardless, the question is one of potentiality. In other words, if the circumstance permitting these vast conquests emerged, which of these powers would be most appropriate to fulfill the vacuum in short notice.
 
It was unlikely that anyone could've achieved European domination. However in 1400 the Ottomans would seem to be in the best position. Their European rivals, were much weaker, and more divided then they would be later in the century, after the Hundred Years War. They missed their window to take Constantinople, and advance into Europe by an act of arrogant stupidity. They deliberately provoked the Emperor Tamerlane, redirecting his aggression from China, onto themselves. And did the Chinese even thank the Turks for making a sacrifice play? Nope, they didn't even send a letter, or a Chinese Dinner. The Turks were set back 50 years by that blunder.
 
I believe France's population gives them the best chance, although I agree that nobody has more than a slim chance of pulling this off.
 
It was unlikely that anyone could've achieved European domination. However in 1400 the Ottomans would seem to be in the best position. Their European rivals, were much weaker, and more divided then they would be later in the century, after the Hundred Years War. They missed their window to take Constantinople, and advance into Europe by an act of arrogant stupidity. They deliberately provoked the Emperor Tamerlane, redirecting his aggression from China, onto themselves. And did the Chinese even thank the Turks for making a sacrifice play? Nope, they didn't even send a letter, or a Chinese Dinner. The Turks were set back 50 years by that blunder.

To be precise, Timur never was an Emperor (or Khan if we consider it equivalent): he had a modest title of “Amir” because, not being a Ghengizid, he could not raise higher.

Speaking of Chinese ingratitude, well, they rarely thank anybody for anything (including modern technology :) ) so the Ottomans were not an exception. OTOH, I’m not sure that an act of an arrogant stupidity can be realistically qualified as an intentional sacrifice.
 
To be precise, Timur never was an Emperor (or Khan if we consider it equivalent): he had a modest title of “Amir” because, not being a Ghengizid, he could not raise higher.

Speaking of Chinese ingratitude, well, they rarely thank anybody for anything (including modern technology :) ) so the Ottomans were not an exception. OTOH, I’m not sure that an act of an arrogant stupidity can be realistically qualified as an intentional sacrifice.

The Turks didn't even have the decency to get completely destroyed by the Timurids and buy the ERE another generation or two of life support. Some team players they are.
 
Folks have suggested scenarios that see Charles V's possessions cohere into a more-or-less united empire consisting of some combination of Iberia, Germany, Italy, the Low Countries, and even France, depending on how lucky he is on a military and dynastic level. Combine that with more successful Spanish incursions into North Africa...
 
Folks have suggested scenarios that see Charles V's possessions cohere into a more-or-less united empire consisting of some combination of Iberia, Germany, Italy, the Low Countries, and even France, depending on how lucky he is on a military and dynastic level. Combine that with more successful Spanish incursions into North Africa...

I suppose if he also got France somehow, and his domains avoided getting split, then he'd have the edge. How likely would that be, though? Everyone from England to the Ottomans would surely have tried to stop such a juggernaut.
 
I suppose if he also got France somehow, and his domains avoided getting split, then he'd have the edge. How likely would that be, though? Everyone from England to the Ottomans would surely have tried to stop such a juggernaut.

1517
Charlotte, age 2, daughter of Francis I of France, who is betrothed to Charles V, does not die; Charles and Francis become close personal friends (POD)

1518
The Spanish Cortez accepts Chalres as King (OTL)

1519
Emperor Maximilian dies. (OTL)
Charles and Francis persuade the Pope and some of the German princes to elect them as Co-Emperors

1519-1522
Rebellion by the German princes opposing the new arrangement is crushed

1523
Charles sides with Martin Luther and begins reforming the Church

1524-1525
Imperial forces defeat the Pope, who opposed reform
Anne of Bohemia dies

1526
Hungarians win at Mohacs and their King survives;
Ferdinand, brother of Charles, marries Isabela of Portugal

1532
Charles and Charlotte have a daughter

....


Henry II of France is Francis I' only surviving male heir upon his fathers death. He is bethroted to his cousin, the daughter of Charles and Charlotte (let's call her Isabela)

Isabela ends up inheriting the domanis of her father (Charles V) and uncle's heir (Ferdinands son with Isabela of Portugal)

Henry II fights a number of wars to secure his wifes inheritances, and also succeeds being crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

Henry II and Isabela of Habsburg are succeeded by only one surving male heir, let's call him Charles Francis.

Upon the death of his parents, Charles Francis of Valois-Habsburg would be:

- Holy Roman Emperor
- King of France
- King of Spain
- King Portugal
- King of Italy
- Archduke of Austria
- Lord of the Netherlands



View attachment 377534
 

How was the Papacy against reform? It was not as if the Papacy in 1517 was Boniface VIII. The Papacy was actively weak, reformist and slow to act for everything. Their weakness of the Renaissance Papacy, aside from a few outliers, and the admission of issues in the Church is what prompted the success of the initial Reformers, in my opinion.
 
Well, the OP did not specify that this empire had to last very long...

They'd still need to push a good deal further than what's described there to meet the OP's goals. So they need to last long enough to succeed in that.
 
They'd still need to push a good deal further than what's described there to meet the OP's goals. So they need to last long enough to succeed in that.

A ruling, this sort of empire would meet the goals set, if they are able to also gather England and preferably some sort of hegemony over Scandinavia, Poland and Hungary.
 
A ruling, this sort of empire would meet the goals set, if they are able to also gather England and preferably some sort of hegemony over Scandinavia, Poland and Hungary.

That's still a few extra steps, during which international coalitions, internal rebellion, and the Reformation need to be contended with.
 
The Poll is with a POD of 1400 (we can push back 50 years or push up 50 years depending upon circumstance) and with an ending date of 1700 (the hegemony over Europe or the Mediterranean must be completed by 1700, so no Napoleonic era styled situations), to choose among those in the poll, which country was most likely to either:

1. Form an hegemony across Europe. That is, either they rule indirectly through a series of vassals or tributaries all of Europe or they rule these lands directly. Whichever is most likely. Defining Europe: we refer to the lands beginning in Portugal and ending at the Kingdom of Poland, thus we refer to a limited Europe; Europe as in the Latin world if you will.

2. Form an hegemony across the Mediterranean. Namely, that said power is able to make clients, vassals or directly rule the entirety of the sea, in a manner resembling the Roman Empire of 120 CE.

Note, exceptions can be made by powers. For instance, the Papacy can achieve this goal if every monarch submits to Papal decrees regarding acceptance of Papal vassalage.

Then, let’s start with the list of the exclusions from your poll: Poland, Lithuania, Novgorod, Moscow and the GH are out because none of them was anywhere close to the Mediterranean and, with the exception of the GH and, for a short while Lithuania, around 1400 none of them had access even to the Black Sea. Well, Kalmar Union also was not anywhere close geographically and the same goes for England which was at that time far away from “ruling over the waves”.

Out of the rest, in the short term probably the Ottomans. Even with the offset caused by Timur, they still have the best military system in the Med region (of course, it took time to come back).

In 1400 there was no Charles V/Carlos I or even united Spain.

Aragon had a fleet but did it have a strong army circa 1400?

France was between Caroline (ended in 1389) and Lancastrian (started in 1415) phases of the 100YW but hardly in a good position for the expansion across the Med (among other problems, its king started showing signs of madness in 1392 and there was an ongoing quarrel between the Orlean and Burgundian parties).

The Papacy was in the midst of the Great Schism (1378 - 1417).

The HRE between 1346 and 1437 was under the House of Luxembourg and Sigismund was just beaten by the Ottomans at Nicopolis in 1396 and had to deal with other numerous problems (among them the Hussite Wars which started in 1419). In Hungary he was imprisoned once and deposed twice and then had problems in Italy with Laduslaus of Naples. As far as the Med (or rather Adriatic’s) goes, he got possession of Croatia and sovereignty over Serbia but he was also busy with the Polish-Teutonic quarrel, Council of Constance and the Husittes. Hardly a good situation for the serious expansion on the Med.

Byzantine Empire by 1400 was almost dead.

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Venice had limited military resources which would not allow to go beyond possession of the islands on the Med.

Did Mamelukes have a powerful navy and stable dynasty?

But in a long term for the Med we can probably have competition between Spain (in the broad terms), France and the Ottomans. If you do not insist upon the complete territorial possession, probably by 1700 France may become the #1 candidate if it concentrated on this specific area instead of trying to run in all directions simultaneously.

Starting from the reign of Louis XI it should concentrate on building the “modern” army based upon the Swiss model augmented by powerful artillery (which it had by the time of the Italian Wars) and backed up by the traditional armored cavalry. Infantry has to be initially Swiss but creation of the national units had to be started immediately. Introduction of infantry firearms should happen as soon as they became practical. This could make all the difference in the Italian Wars and, being better economically developed than Spain and having a greater population, France would be able to modernize its army with a greater ease (which did happen). Preferably, the Wars of Religion are avoided.

The same goes for the earlier development of a navy with the initial heavy reliance upon the Genovese but steadily growth of the French own navy and early moving from the galleys to the sail and artillery ships.

France should be able to maintain presence in part of Italy (Milan, Genoa, Naples, perhaps Piedmont) and dominate the rest. With a fleet strong enough (and alliance with the Ottomans) it could end up with a possession of some important islands. Avoidance of the military conflicts in Germany would allow to concentrate resources on the Med containing Spain and eventually making the Ottomans a junior partner in anti-Hapsburg scenario: in an absence of the French aggression in Germany, the Hapsburgs are on their own and if France is actively supporting the Dutch in their wars with England, then the British penetration into the Med is also limited.

I’m not sure that European dominance by a single power by 1700 was possible. Of course, it can be argued that LXIV came close because it was taking coalitions to stop him. But in a reality France under his rule was in such a deep trouble economically that I would not take this type of a domination seriously.
 
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To be precise, Timur never was an Emperor (or Khan if we consider it equivalent): he had a modest title of “Amir” because, not being a Ghengizid, he could not raise higher.

Speaking of Chinese ingratitude, well, they rarely thank anybody for anything (including modern technology :) ) so the Ottomans were not an exception. OTOH, I’m not sure that an act of an arrogant stupidity can be realistically qualified as an intentional sacrifice.

Thanks for the correction, and no I was only kidding about an intentional sacrifice.
 
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