AH challenge: Save Carthage!

[Smaug]

*bump*

Hard to tell who was more enlightened. After all, the Carthaginians used to sacrifice people (even children). And I'm not aware that the Carthaginians had a flourishing science (although they could've afford it...)

I'll have to give that up, as I don't know about Carthage's internal politics, but I would have like them to become the early Portuguese. Work thier way down the African Atlantic coast, and perhaps, maybe, just saying, a ship gets blown of course and ends up in the Caribean(?). The word gets back, and Hannibal makes a huge bet.

He takes 5 ships, with 20 horses, some livestock, and a shrewd group of craftsman.

This is my baby, what if the Europeans rolled up into the New World, and the Natives knew how to work Iron? What if they allready had a vigorous trade network?

I can see the Europeans having a few guns, and cannon, but what if the natives met them at the beach in a sophisticated battle line, with well armored,disciplined, phalanxes? What if Hannibal had left a legacy of the theory of combined arms?

Imo, its something like this, that might have really messed up Europe.... Where would Spain have been without all that gold and silver, and how might that have affected the European economy?

just sayin

 

[JLCook]

Carthaginian Civilization

Could survive if an outpost is founded suffuciently far away from Rome, such that the Romans cannot get to it. Such places could include Ireland, Liberia, Brazil, Cuba or Florida. Getting across the Atlantic seems a stretch, but the other two places remained outside of Roman reach.

Naturally, the location of such places would have to remain a carefully gaurded secret. For a reestablished "Carthage" in any of those places to remain safe from Romans, they'd have to refrain from much contact with Roman outposts and colonies for some time. If for example, Carthqage is reestablished in Ireland, and they persist in raiding Roman outposts in Gaul or Hispania for example, Romans might go looking for them, and Romans FOUND great Britain itself rather easily.

Carthage in West Africa (in Liberia or someplace nearby) would be a bit harder to locate and would be protected overland by the vast bulk of the Sahara Desert. I don't think that Roman Seapower really ever extended much into the Atlantic, so this one seems possible.

The establishment of such a colony would have to be made while the city of Carthage still existed and policy would have to be that it was a SECRET colony. If Rome knew or suspected that such a place existed, they would go looking for it and technically speaking any place reachable by Carthaginians in 200- 100bc is also reachable by Romans.

With that in mind, The American locations for a hidden, secret Carthage would offer the most chance for success. The Romans wouldn't even think of trying to cross the Atlantic (nothing is out there-everybody knows that).

The problem with establishing a Pre-Colombian civilization in the Americas, however, rests with the question of "How do you overpower the natives without using a vastly superior technology(like gunpowder)?" The Natives, using weapons that are just as lethal as those used by the invaders will greatly outnumber those same invaders.

If the location chosen was say present day Havanna, on a fairly large Island, it may be possible to bring in sufficient numbers to prevail and permenantly conquer. After that, it only requires time to build a powerful, functioning, Carthaginian based empire.

Allow such to remain there for 1500, undesturbed years, and it would spread to the point of covering the entire Gulf of mexico and Caribbean region. Columbus would get a very nasty surprise, when he finally shows up!

 

[Max Sinister]

Well, the native Americans didn't have steel weapons, and there's the problem with Old World diseases. An ancient civilization would have no problems overwhelming them.

Whether the Romans could follow the Carthaginians over the ocean, is another question... in fact, I wonder whether the Carthaginians could've opened permanent contact with America, or even brought over refugees safely. After all, what kind of navigation did they use?

 

[Cosmos]

I wonder whether the Carthaginians could've opened permanent contact with America, or even brought over refugees safely. After all, what kind of navigation did they use?

Carthaginians were able to keep track of their latitude by observing the star Polaris, without knowing their east-west coordinate but for the sighting of familiar lands. If they had been carried west from west Africa and had thus by accident reached the tip of Brazil, they would have from that point known the latitude of the shortest trip across the Atlantic. After that they could send ships across whenever they wanted and their success would depend on the winds and the currents. They had some ships that were quite large, up to 35 or 40 meters in length, I believe, well-able to make an ocean crossing. Sending a large fleet would increase the chances of success. As for transporting refugess, I don't think they could have done it in large numbers, because much of their ship volume and crew was taken up powering the oars. The scenario that I think is reasonable is that they, or other Phoenicians, went to America but did not plant colonies. I meantioned in an earlier post, the punic coin that shows what at least one scholar (a guy from Mt. Holyoke I think) says shows a continent that can only be the Americas.

 

[stevep]

Carthaginians were able to keep track of their latitude by observing the star Polaris, without knowing their east-west coordinate but for the sighting of familiar lands. If they had been carried west from west Africa and had thus by accident reached the tip of Brazil, they would have from that point known the latitude of the shortest trip across the Atlantic. After that they could send ships across whenever they wanted and their success would depend on the winds and the currents. They had some ships that were quite large, up to 35 or 40 meters in length, I believe, well-able to make an ocean crossing. Sending a large fleet would increase the chances of success. As for transporting refugess, I don't think they could have done it in large numbers, because much of their ship volume and crew was taken up powering the oars. The scenario that I think is reasonable is that they, or other Phoenicians, went to America but did not plant colonies. I meantioned in an earlier post, the punic coin that shows what at least one scholar (a guy from Mt. Holyoke I think) says shows a continent that can only be the Americas.

Given that the Carthaginians were renowned traders and sailors could they have adopted to oceanic conditions? I.e. basically have developed some form of sailing ships that would have been more seaworthy in open waters. This would also have cut the sizes of crews and hence made such trips easier and cargo capacities larger. Not sure if all ships at the time were rowed. Warships generally were but large bulk vessels, like the great grain carriers that eventually brought Rome its corn probably weren't.

How about this for a scenario. Some sort of civil conflict in Carthage, say after the 1st Punic War. One group, say led to Hannibal's farther, is defeated and flees to Spain, taking supporters with it. As it is known to be hostile to Rome, possibly the cause of the war, it is vulnerable to both Roman attack and that from their Carthagian rivals. As such it holds out in Spain for a while, boosted by control of trade through the pillars of Hercules and the wider water beyond. All the time developing knowledge of the further waters and ship designs that work better in them. Probably also working closely with the local Spanish to get support from them. Sooner or later Carthage or, more likely Rome, comes after them and large number flee further west. Possibly 1st to say Ireland or somewhere on the African coast. Roman ships sent after them are unable to handle the waters and largely destroyed by storms so contact is lost.

Possibly further exploring or a ship carried west by a storm lands somewhere in the New World. News of this reaches the Spanish colony prior to the Roman attack. Knowing they can't hold out against the Roman numbers they decide to flee to those new lands with those of the population willing to travel with them.

The colony, established wherever you like likely - or prefer - struggles at 1st because of its small size and limited resources. However it will have metal technology, large ships to enable trade, horses and probably other bits of knowledge. [For instance I don't think the Americas had much in the way of writing at the time. That would be a big advantage to the settlers, enabling them to keep details and gather knowledge and make them look even more like magicians to the natives]. Also there is disease, although not sure how many of the plagues that devastated the region after Columbus were already around in Hannibel's time.

Over centuries they establish a state, gradually either conquering or intermarrying with the locals. [Probably a bit of both]. Either they send secret missions back to the old world or, because they fear discover or during the difficult early years they lose the knowledge/resources for oceanic travel. Either way they have some history, which might make them hostile to anyone from Europe. [Especially since the language of the highly educated and any priests in a ship from Europe will be Latin!]

Therefore when Columbus arrives he might find a markedly more advanced culture which is a lot more hostile or at least cautious of him. If nothing else Christian bigotry and the fact it is the 'Roman' Catholic church will raise ancient fears. Possibly if Columbus's force is captured after some conflict then the Spanish will believe he is lost at sea and the Carthaginians will have a chance to prepare for future arrivals.

Steve

 

[Cosmos]

I really like your scenario of a Punic civilization surviving in the western hemisphere. Let me divide up your post to offer questions and comments.

Given that the Carthaginians were renowned traders and sailors could they have adopted to oceanic conditions? I.e. basically have developed some form of sailing ships that would have been more seaworthy in open waters. This would also have cut the sizes of crews and hence made such trips easier and cargo capacities larger. Not sure if all ships at the time were rowed. Warships generally were but large bulk vessels, like the great grain carriers that eventually brought Rome its corn probably weren't.

Do you know specifically when Cartheginians or other Phoenicians would have introduced unrowed sailing ships? It would be useful to me as I'm in the process of writing a novel set in the 8th century BCE, I have a rather eccentric merchant captain (born in Akko, raised in Dor, and educated at a maritime academy in Tyre) who needs to be cut off from Israel for several years. I'm thinking of sending him across the ocean or a least around Africa, from the Red Sea to the Pillars of Hercules (which I assume the phoenicians knew by a different name - do you happen to know?). I've been assuming the ships of my character's latest fleet would have their usual oars plus one rectagular sail, perhaps with an innovation, the foresail added, an extra sail added to the bow. Shall I have them reduce the number of oars (or increase the size and displacement of the ships without increasing the number of oars) thus increasing the cargo volume but still providing backup propulsion for times when the winds are not favorable? I suppose there is no evidence to prove that such an innovation did not occur as our only way of knowning about their ships come from the few that have been excavated as well as the drawings on pottery. What I think places provides my character with a need for more "sea worthy" ships is his assignment to lead a fleet across the length of the Red Sea, to the southern tip of Arabia, the Red Sea being less friendly to ships than the calmer Mediterranean.

The colony, established wherever you like likely - or prefer - struggles at 1st because of its small size and limited resources. However it will have metal technology...

OK, here we need to consider how they're going to:

1) maintain a supply of the metals that they need - this requires that they either discover places to mine iron, copper, tin ore, etc in the western hemisphere, or that they can purchase smelted metals in the east and take them to their new colony.

2) that they have enough people in their colony to have a metal working class to build and operate forges

I would propose for your scenario a transitional period where during the time that they still have contact with the east they build up a self-sufficient metal industry in the west. So we have to find out about sources of ore and choose the location of the colony appropriately.

...large ships to enable trade, horses and probably other bits of knowledge. [For instance I don't think the Americas had much in the way of writing at the time. That would be a big advantage to the settlers, enabling them to keep details and gather knowledge and make them look even more like magicians to the natives].

yes and to transport horses they need pretty large ships, although I suppose they already moved horses shorter distances by sea as early as the LBA.

Also there is disease, although not sure how many of the plagues that devastated the region after Columbus were already around in Hannibel's time.

Yeh, I'm not sure either, but as a medical doctor I should look into this. I can tell you that plagues don't depend only on having a microbial agent and a vector if needed, but on the environmental conditions. Yersenia pestes (check spelling, I may have it wrong), for instance, which caused boubonic plague in Europe had come from Asia and was particularly bad in Europe because the unsanitary conditions allowed it to spread in rats, I think.

Over centuries they establish a state, gradually either conquering or intermarrying with the locals. [Probably a bit of both]. Either they send secret missions back to the old world or, because they fear discover or during the difficult early years they lose the knowledge/resources for oceanic travel. Either way they have some history, which might make them hostile to anyone from Europe. [Especially since the language of the highly educated and any priests in a ship from Europe will be Latin!]

Actually the punic language was effectively Hebrew although the writing was ancient Hebrew while the characters that ultimately were used in the Hebrew of the tanak came from Aramaic. To study their bible, some priests had reading knowledge of Hebrew but certainly they would not understand the ancient letters that the carthgineans would still be using (or some derrivative of them). But the talking would be Hebrew and would correspond to some words that the priests might consider holy. It might scare the crap out of them. Even more to the point the cartheginians in American might have preserved alternative --and much more pagan oriented--versions of some of the stories that ultimately got into the tanak and the christian bible.

Therefore when Columbus arrives he might find a markedly more advanced culture.

Steve

Perhaps more advanced than Columbus' own people. Being cut off from the Mediterranean in Roman times, the Carthegineans in America would be starting off with the knowldege of the Greeks as well as Roman level technology. While Europe is going into a dark age the Punic colony might advance considerably. Suppose they were in Central America, where from the Mayans they learn the concept of the number zero and also develop steam power in the early in the common era. If this happens they might have steam ships even before the fall of the western Roman Empire. By the time of the beginning of Islam in the east, the punic colony in America might be developing aviation and electricity. I suppose by that time they would be an empire in north and south america and probably interferring with activities on the other side of the globe, such that history would have been entirely different and there would be no columbus and perhaps no viking explorers. Or perhaps the innovations I proposed would take longer, such that the punic-americans would receive the arriving europeans arund columbus' time , but still be more advanced. Perhaps having a small population they would leave europe alone and watch them develop from the skies and through spy networks, and thus be tracking the european explorers, and receive thier first ships saying, "Welcome. We've been expecting you. The passage that you seek lies hither. We call it the Panama Canal."

 

[Cosmos]

The following information, which I found in Wikipedia, is useful to our discussion about a punic civilization in America:


The bronze age in the Andes region of South America is thought to have begun at about 900 B.C. when Chavin artisans discovered how to alloy copper with tin. The first objects produced were mostly utilitarian in nature, such as axes, knives, and agricultural implements. Later on, However, as the Chavin became more experienced in bronze-working technology they produced many ornate and highly decorative objects for administrative, religious, and other ceremonial purposes, as decorative work in gold, silver and copper was a highly developed tradition that had already long been known to the Chavin....

...Because iron working was introduced directly to the Americas and Australasia by European colonization, there was never an iron age in either location.

OK, so in the Andes there is obviously a suppy of tin to make bronze. Tin was rather rare throughout the world and sources were highly valued, with the Phoenicians doing much of the transporting early on. However, as noted above, the most advanced metal working in the americas prior to the europeans was a bronze age and it is opposide the side of south america where the punic ships would be arriving. The carthegineans, having iron technology, would arrive in stonage places but if in south america would eventually encounter people with bronze technology. This would give them already-existing mines and forges, which they could then update to include iron technology. That would be a lot easier, and require fewer people, than building a metal industry from scratch. If I were in their position, I'd seek to purchase some forges and then train the native workers in the smelting of iron. Instead of using resources to mine copper and tin, I'd purchase those as well, along with recycled bronze, from native-run industries and focus my own people on searching for supplies of iron ore, probably without explaining to the natives exactly what we're trying to find.

 

[stevep]

I really like your scenario of a Punic civilization surviving in the western hemisphere. Let me divide up your post to offer questions and comments.

Cosmos

I think you overestimate my knowledge , but will give some input to some of the things you raise.

Do you know specifically when Carthaginians or other Phoenicians would have introduced unrowed sailing ships? It would be useful to me as I'm in the process of writing a novel set in the 8th century BCE, I have a rather eccentric merchant captain (born in Akko, raised in Dor, and educated at a maritime academy in Tyre) who needs to be cut off from Israel for several years. I'm thinking of sending him across the ocean or a least around Africa, from the Red Sea to the Pillars of Hercules (which I assume the phoenicians knew by a different name - do you happen to know?). I've been assuming the ships of my character's latest fleet would have their usual oars plus one rectagular sail, perhaps with an innovation, the foresail added, an extra sail added to the bow. Shall I have them reduce the number of oars (or increase the size and displacement of the ships without increasing the number of oars) thus increasing the cargo volume but still providing backup propulsion for times when the winds are not favorable? I suppose there is no evidence to prove that such an innovation did not occur as our only way of knowning about their ships come from the few that have been excavated as well as the drawings on pottery. What I think places provides my character with a need for more "sea worthy" ships is his assignment to lead a fleet across the length of the Red Sea, to the southern tip of Arabia, the Red Sea being less friendly to ships than the calmer Mediterranean.

I'm not an expert, by a long way. Just thinking that rowing ships, especially the narrow warships, aren't really suitable for the open ocean. As I say I know that in the Roman empire they imported vast amounts of grain from Egypt and other areas and presumably those were sailing ships rather than rowed ones. Possibly a bit like the northern cogs of medieval times? Cargo ships were generally shorter and broader than warships and would be less suitable to oars. Also the Phoenicians and later the Carthaginians visited Britain and other places in the northern waters. If we're presuming a period based say in southern Spain and depending on controlling western trade for much of their resources they might well have developed ships more for those water. However this is just guesswork from someone who has gathered assorted info from all over the place.

OK, here we need to consider how they're going to:

1) maintain a supply of the metals that they need - this requires that they either discover places to mine iron, copper, tin ore, etc in the western hemisphere, or that they can purchase smelted metals in the east and take them to their new colony.

2) that they have enough people in their colony to have a metal working class to build and operate forges

I would propose for your scenario a transitional period where during the time that they still have contact with the east they build up a self-sufficient metal industry in the west. So we have to find out about sources of ore and choose the location of the colony appropriately.

Good point on how difficult it might be to find ore sources and develop metallurgy in the new world. I think Spain had some developed industry so it could have formed an important part of their trade goods and they could have taken as many people as possible with them when they fled the Romans. I do agree however they are unlikely to make it all in one go. Probably more that some explorer or chance trip westwards enables them to find new lands to the west before the pressure from Rome becomes too great and they have some idea what their going to. That way there's not an extended period of contact with the old lands which might expose their existence. Again I don't know enough to do more than guess. Anyone out there got an ideas on how difficult it would be setting up new metal smelting in the new world? If their landing in N American, rather than the Caribbean there's plenty of wood to supply fuel.

yes and to transport horses they need pretty large ships, although I suppose they already moved horses shorter distances by sea as early as the LBA.

Good point although should be possible. Think I have hear about the Viking settlements in Greenland having cattle and horses so they must have been able to move them that far.

Yeh, I'm not sure either, but as a medical doctor I should look into this. I can tell you that plagues don't depend only on having a microbial agent and a vector if needed, but on the environmental conditions. Yersenia pestes (check spelling, I may have it wrong), for instance, which caused boubonic plague in Europe had come from Asia and was particularly bad in Europe because the unsanitary conditions allowed it to spread in rats, I think.

I'm no medical man but think I understand what you mean. Have read that the plague for instance is actually firmly entrenched in rat populations across much of the world, including the Americas and its only modern lifestyles and medical knowledge that prevents new outbreaks in humans.

Actually the Punic language was effectively Hebrew although the writing was ancient Hebrew while the characters that ultimately were used in the Hebrew of the tanak came from Aramaic. To study their bible, some priests had reading knowledge of Hebrew but certainly they would not understand the ancient letters that the carthgineans would still be using (or some derrivative of them). But the talking would be Hebrew and would correspond to some words that the priests might consider holy. It might scare the crap out of them. Even more to the point the cartheginians in American might have preserved alternative --and much more pagan oriented--versions of some of the stories that ultimately got into the tanak and the christian bible.

Good point. I was thinking that the Spanish language might have connotations of ancient Latin and the language of any clerics and possibly the better educated would have included that, which would be a red flag to the Carthaginians. However this does presume that they still know the language of their ancient enemies. Which is highly unlikely after such a long time unless there had been occasional contacts. Hadn't considered the native Punic and its origins. In both cases, although they might still be called Latin and Hebrew a lot would probably have changed. It could well scare any priests who know Hebrew in Columbus’s crew.

Perhaps more advanced than Columbus' own people. Being cut off from the Mediterranean in Roman times, the Carthegineans in America would be starting off with the knowldege of the Greeks as well as Roman level technology. While Europe is going into a dark age the Punic colony might advance considerably. Suppose they were in Central America, where from the Mayans they learn the concept of the number zero and also develop steam power in the early in the common era. If this happens they might have steam ships even before the fall of the western Roman Empire. By the time of the beginning of Islam in the east, the punic colony in America might be developing aviation and electricity. I suppose by that time they would be an empire in north and south america and probably interferring with activities on the other side of the globe, such that history would have been entirely different and there would be no columbus and perhaps no viking explorers. Or perhaps the innovations I proposed would take longer, such that the punic-americans would receive the arriving europeans arund columbus' time , but still be more advanced. Perhaps having a small population they would leave europe alone and watch them develop from the skies and through spy networks, and thus be tracking the european explorers, and receive thier first ships saying, "Welcome. We've been expecting you. The passage that you seek lies hither. We call it the Panama Canal."

If they got that advanced I doubt they could avoid interfering at some time or another. [Possibly a secret history where subtle actions by Punic agents were responsible for the fall of Rome?] I was thinking more that with such a small starting population they would struggle to maintain all their technology and culture and in the initial few decades might lose quite a lot of it. However keeping a few key elements and remembering legends of more and later striving to regain it. Don't forget that the Americas is relatively poor in beasts of burden so other than any creatures they bring with them the settlers will have few horses, oxen, pigs etc. Many of them could die in the voyage, early difficult years in different conditions or simply be used for food. As such, unless they can restock from the old world, which might not be possible and would be difficult, then might lose some species and have other undermined by a lack of genetic diversity.

Anyway, hope the avoid comments are of use.

Steve

 

[Cosmos]

Steve,

Your insights are actually quite useful. I sense you are more knowledgable about the Roman period than the Phoenicians pre-Carthage but from what I've read I'm sure you're right about the Phoenician merchant ships being wider and shorter than the streamlined warship, which had to be rowed so they could use their bow-mounted rams against other ships. I don't see what being wide in itself would be a reason why a ship would not have oars. I think there were phoenician merchant ships about 5 meters wide with rowers on each side. However I can understand why rowing would be less efficient in very rough waters, the oars coming out of the water at the wrong times as the ship bumbs up and down. Thus as the sail technology improved there would have been a cost-benefit analysis regarding the usefulness of having any rowers at all. If the hull had to be without spaces in it pretty high up then the lowest level of oars would have to be pretty high, but then some columbus-era ships had holes for canons below the main deck, didn't they? As long as they are always above the waterline.

I'm thinking now that being in the Red Sea as well as on the Atlantic coast of Spain might inspire them to make technical innovations, such as adding more sails and making the ships deeper and with more ballast to as to remain stable in choppy waters and even in a storm.

As for the scarcity of beasts of burdon in the west, might this perhaps inspire them to develop steam power faster than the the people back east?

I hadn't thought about the scarcity of lumber for fuel in central america. Good point.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Actually the punic language was effectively Hebrew although the writing was ancient Hebrew while the characters that ultimately were used in the Hebrew of the tanak came from Aramaic.

Actually, there were some major differences, although the languages were close enough that Augustine was able to identify Punic with Hebrew and Syriac as a Semitic language (even if he didn't call it as such). For starters, Phoenician preserved two cases, a nominative case and an oblique case, whereas Hebrew had lost its case system by the time of the earliest writings. There are also some major lexical differences. The copular verb in Phoenician is k-w-n (as in Arabic) instead of h-w-h as in Hebrew. The so-called Canaanite shift has occurred in Phoenician, and gone one step further - /a:/ becomes /o:/ in Canaanite and then /u:/ in Phoenician-Punic (hence placenames like Rusaddir, cf. Hebrew rosh and Arabic ra's "head; cape").

Punic also lost most of the uvular and pharyngeal consonants characteristic of other Semitic languages, which gave it a very different sound (sort of like the modern Israeli pronunciation of Hebrew as opposed to the traditional Mizrahi one). These letters were then recycled to do service as vowels (as they were in the Greek script and in Yiddish). Consequently, Neo-Punic is written with vowel letters, and the script is semi-cursive, almost calligraphic - not at all recognizably similar to the Old Hebrew script.

When the Phoenicians colonized new locations, more often than not they set up entrepots rather than real colonies. With few exceptions (the earlier colonies, like Kition, Gadir, and Carthage), they only established colonies in uninhabited resource-rich areas. Generally these entrepots were seasonal camps rather than permanent settlements. The few Phoenicians who staffed these entrepots did frequently intermarry with the aboriginal inhabitants, giving rise to groups of hypenated Phoenicians (Libo-phoenicians, Ibero-phoenicians, etc.). Silent trade was especially common, although occasionally the Phoenicians (unlike the Greeks) learned the languages of their trading partners. As a result, the hyphenated Phoenicians will probably speak some variation on the local language or a mixed language or pidgin tongue, although the community leaders will probably send their kids off to learn proper Phoenician (the leaders of the Numidians, for example, were fluent in Phoenician, even though they spoke some Libyan tongue, possibly an ancestor of modern Berber). I don't see "proper" Carthaginian Punic surviving in the New World for more than a generation or two, unless you have scads of Carthaginians (10,000+) settling in a relatively uninhabited area.

My impression of the Punic ships is that they were all outfitted with oars, which were used in coastal waters, and sails for long-distance travel in deeper waters. I haven't had a chance to look into this in any great detail.

 

[Cosmos]

Thanks Leo! The linguistic info is fascination. If you find out anything more about the Phoenician ships, please let me know.