AH Challenge: Religious Cold War

Reading the Opposing Religion thread gave be an idea which I don't have time to develop at the moment.

What condictions would be needed for Judesm, Christianity and Islam to be allied with each other against a fourth religion that is percieved (and rightly so) to all three?

I was thinking of creating a fourth religion sometime after the birth of Islam that is so militant and radically opposite to the other three that Jews, Christians and Muslims would rather band together for mutual defence than try to coexist with it, but for the purposes of this challenge the fourth religion can be created at any time period.

Extra points for getting the TL into the 21st century.
 
less seculated states. Religoius coups/revolutions in response to the death of god in the times of industry perhaps? Since you mention judaism, an Israel-like state must be created much earlier on, of course. Relgious juntas taking power in Europe istead of Facists and Communists following world war 1?
 
Weapon M said:
Something with the Mongols? Or maybe Communism?

Something similar at any rate. I was envisioning a powerful expansionist state arising in the East based around a religion that is almost diametrically opposed to the other three.


Evil_evol said:
less seculated states. Religoius coups/revolutions in response to the death of god in the times of industry perhaps? Since you mention judaism, an Israel-like state must be created much earlier on, of course. Relgious juntas taking power in Europe istead of Facists and Communists following world war 1?

I think the world would be just as secular but the power blocks would be different. They'd be a long standing Judeo-Christian/Islamic alliance in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa and the Fourth Religion Bloc further east in Iraq/Iran and maybe European Russia and Poland.

I think all this would start as religion against religion but would eventually become ideology against ideology. Much like OTL.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Most important here is the religion, of course, not the conditions, as you say. The religion will create the conditions. (or seem to)

It should be, while inherently opposed to all three, also as similar to them as they are to each other. Otherwise it will not be as inherently opposed, tending to go its own way.

This may rule out a militant polytheism. Hinduism, with some pretty militant sects, exists in OTL but does not inherently oppose the judeochrislam (to coin a phrase :rolleyes: ) axis.

Devil worship? Maybe, the problem here is its so mirror image it can be seen as nearly the same thing and so would likely be co-opted or subsumed over time. Still, it has possibilities. As practiced today devil worship is "Christian Egoism" and egoism remains the bad sin in all of the big three. Perhaps a devil worship with a strongly monotheist base, like Islam, so that the Christian Trinity becomes blasphemous. Being egoistic sets it against Islam (and the other 2 as well, but Islam literally means 'surrender'). It could be against Judaism as the originator of selflessness.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Manichaeism would be a good threat to all three. Its worldview (that is, the physical world is a trap for the soul, ruled by a blind demiurge, who is the "God" worshipped by the other traditions) is radically different from the other three. It also has the advantage of coexisting with all three, although it was on its way out in the West when Islam arrived. It probably survived in the East up until the early modern period (indeed, the White Lotus Society, from which the various freemasonic mafia groups in China - like the Triads and the Tongs - seems to be a Manichaean splinter group).
 
Would Manichaeism have a chance at becoming a true mass movement? I don't know how a religion so antithetical to most people's way of living could become the mainstay of human society without becoming radically different, or entering into a revolutionary situation (the second might be the key, actually).
 
Leo,

That's a very interesting idea. In my "Great North African Crusade" TL, I have the Mongols and Eastern Turks converting to Manichaenism, driving the Nestorian Christian Turks and Mongols West (where they settle in India in an ATL Mogul Empire), and then conquer China and much of the 'stans.

A "religious Cold War" could arise later in the TL when the Seljuks, who stay in Central Asia (that was the POD) get driven down into Persia and Russia by the Manichaean Mongols and bring tales of terror. All the Christian and Muslim states of the Middle East and Eastern Europe (and since the North African Crusader states are tied into Italy, Westerners too) ally together to fight the Blasphemous Horde...

Carlton,

The Manichees could be a Bolshevik-like minority that takes advantage of a divided opposition to seize absolute power. The majority might not be Manichaean themselves, but the Manichees would hold all the power...
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
carlton_bach said:
Would Manichaeism have a chance at becoming a true mass movement? I don't know how a religion so antithetical to most people's way of living could become the mainstay of human society without becoming radically different, or entering into a revolutionary situation (the second might be the key, actually).
Matt's right - the Manichees had a very elitist ideology, but at the same time practiced a form of dissimulation, so that their religion took the form of the dominant religion in any given region. In the West, they appeared as a Christian "heresy." In Iran, they appeared to be some kind of Zoroastrian splinter group (such as the Zurvanites). In Central Asia, they took the form of a Christian or Buddhist group as the circumstances demanded.

The basic requirement would be the cooperation or support of the ruling class (as they had under the Uyghurs, or in Iran during the rule of Shabur). The "hearers" led life much as their compatriots did, with the possible exception of taking drink and eating meat. Think of them as a kind of "Outer Party." The "elect," on the other hand, were the hardcore Manichees (no drink, no meat, even some veggies out - and definitely no sex), but they never accounted for very much of the population anyway. Think of them as the "Inner Party." The rest of the (non-initiated) population would comprise "the Proles."
 
Great Mother Religion

A unified Great Mother religion with a central Goddess and a henotheisitc theology (the Ineffable Divine which is both One and Many with a central Goddess as the highest Mystery). Image a "reformer" or better yet a man/woman team who combine elements of the Isis Mystery Cult with the Cybele cult and some new elements as well.

A Goddess religion does not cause a role reversal into matriarchy but it does allow a certain sacerdotal group of women to attain some prominence and authority. Enough to drive the "abrahamic" religions crazy.
 
Dave Howery said:
hmm... how about the J/C/I vs. an extremely atheistic state?

What about one of the mezoamerician beliefs that call for human sacrifice.
The pod would have to be a disease that infects europeans faster and is more virulent than any europeans may introduce.

this could give the mezoamericians horses, gunpower, steel and ships to study as well as time to build their society to the level that would be required to threaten the judeao-christian-islamic religious societies.
 

Kadyet

Banned
If you want historical models, there's Communism and secular hedonism (the direction that Europe and America are heading).
 

Xen

Banned
Perhaps something to do with Satan worship, perhaps it comes to power somewhere in the East, as someone said with the Mongols, or perhaps in the west in the America's. Human sacrafices are the only way to please their God, and he has a particular liking of the blood of the children of Abraham. All men, women and children are executed in masses, their flesh devoured by his followers and their bones turned into tools and weapons. The more sacrafices made, especially of the Children of Abraham, the greater their reward will be in the afterlife, and the closer they are too their God, their ultimate goal is to conquer the world and reshape it in the image of their God.

Perhaps you shouldnt use the Mongols for this after all, its too barbaric even for them, maybe if you create a peoples in say Siberia, they are nomadic like the Mongols and Turks. They become very industrious, very military powerful, and very aggressive, they accept no converts, all who arent born into their culture are inferior and dont deserve life.
 
Xen said:
Perhaps something to do with Satan worship, perhaps it comes to power somewhere in the East, as someone said with the Mongols, or perhaps in the west in the America's.

Isn't Satanism part of Christianity (thereby Judaism and Islam)? Why isn't the concept of either a Hindu superpower explored, while extropolations of Western religion are suggested? China and Japan have their own religions, like Shintoism, etc. How about Buddhism - and all those warrior Monks?

Beware the Flying Fists of the Invincible Brothers of the Shaolin Temple!
 
One wildly implausible idea ....

POD - 10th century - A kingdom emerges in West Africa, earlier and larger and more stable than OTL Ghana. Pagan at first, it later becomes predominantly Islamic. It expands to the north and comes to dominate most of northwest Africa. Seaborne trade develops between the northern and southern parts of this kingdom because ships can carry larger amounts of cargo than cross-desert caravans on land. By the 12th century it is discovered that ships can sail from OTL Sierra Leone or Senegal up to Morocco by steering well out to see and catching favorable winds. Canaries, Cape Verde Islands are discovered. By the time the west African Empire falls apart politically, its different regions remain joined by trade. In early 14th century a ship blown way off course to the west lands on the northeastern coast of OTL Brazil. Other ships explore north into the Caribbean.
By the early 15th century trade is being carried on between west and northwest Africa and Native Americans in Mesoamerica. With trade comes disease, waves of epidemics that sweep through a large part of the Americas and radically disrupt society. In the midst of this chaos, though, there is opportunity for some people in Mesoamerica. The strange men from beyond the eastern sea come in small numbers, and mainly to trade. They bring strange and powerful animals and weapons. Fortunes worth of gold and wilver and jade and feathers and cacao beans are exchanged for a few steel blades, a few pieces of metal armor, a few horses. Even larger fortunes are given to a few individuals to teach natives the secrets of some of these new items.
Near the fringes of a great inland lake in Mesoamerica, already a center of civilization for 2000 years, a relatively obscure tribe called the Mexica learn how to use the new steel and horses better than most. They go from being mercenaries of the most powerful tribes to being the most powerful tribe themselves. Large scale human sacrifices to Huitzilopochtli, their god of war, become their trademark. Personal bravery, discipline in battle and the use of the best weapons are all promoted by the priests of Huitzilopochtli and warrior societies.
As the Mexica push their domains outward toward the coast, the coastal people who did the most extensive trading with the merchants from across the sea become alarmed, and ask the foreigners for help. After a few years, a large expedition under the command of a veteran general from Morocco manages to assemble in the harbors of OTL Cuba and Panama. The core of this force consists of Muslims from northwest and west Africa, as well as Andalusia. There are also some Christians, mainly from the Mediterranean countries. They are supported by native auxiliaries. Marching into the lands of the Mexica, they smash the Mexican forces at first. Destroying temples of the devil-worshipers as they move along, they ultimately storm the Mexica’s capital of Tenochtitlan itself and devastate its main temple complex.
The Mexica, however, rallied under the leadership of a brilliant and charismatic member of the ruling family named Motecuzhoma. They besiege the invaders, and then force them to withdraw toward the coast. Most of the invaders from across the sea are killed, and those that are captured are sacrificed to the gods or used as slaves if they have special skills. The great temples in the capital and elsewhere are rebuilt larger and more magnificent than before. The leaders of the Mexica are determined to never be caught vulnerable by another invasion again. Using the best weapons and skills that they know, they will push the boundaries of their empire as far out as there are more lands to conquer. Someday, they vow, they will go beyond the great eastern sea, and conquer the invaders in their own countries.
 

Xen

Banned
David S Poepoe said:
Isn't Satanism part of Christianity (thereby Judaism and Islam)? Why isn't the concept of either a Hindu superpower explored, while extropolations of Western religion are suggested? China and Japan have their own religions, like Shintoism, etc. How about Buddhism - and all those warrior Monks?

Beware the Flying Fists of the Invincible Brothers of the Shaolin Temple!

It is something along the lines of Christianity and therefore part of the Abrahamic Religions, however it seems right, Satan opposes God, and they would see Muslims, Christains, and Jews as Gods people therefore they must die to please their master.

I didnt explore existing religions like Hinduism because Im taking it as needing to be something so threatening that it causes the Christians and Muslims to put aside their differences and ally as sons of Abraham. Other religions just dont have the malice that my variation of satanism has.

Whats worse, a religion rising that wants to convert you or conquer you and force you to live under their laws or one that will torture and murder you to appease the sworn enemy of your God?
 
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