Mr. Evangelical
Banned
I have heard that the Anglo-Saxons spoke German when they arrived on the British Isles. How can we make England and Wales, if not Scotland and Ireland, stay German speaking? No POD earlier than 400 and no later than 1066.
AH Challenge: Make The English speak German
- Thread starter Mr. Evangelical
- Start date
Well, having German conglomerated a couple hundred or so years earlier is a good start.
ASB in your time frame.
EDIT: and also @Wales: it was never part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. The conquest of the Welsh kingdoms came with the Norman invasion.
Mr. Evangelical
Banned
Would it be the same as OTL German? I also want the modern alphabet to stay with a German England.
Germanic languages were a dialect continuum; those next to eachother were more alike than those further removed, but still very closely related. The Anglo-Saxons spoke a language which was northern West Germanic one, related to Frisian with some Low German influences, because they bordered both.
Back then, you didn't even had a single German language, just regional dialects that can be put in groups like 'Low Franconian', 'Low German', 'High German' and even 'Higher German' up in the mountains.
Back then, you didn't even had a single German language, just regional dialects that can be put in groups like 'Low Franconian', 'Low German', 'High German' and even 'Higher German' up in the mountains.
English is a Germanic language that has a lot of borrowed vocabulary from Latin thanks to the French-speaking Normans (hence all those wonderful silent letters that don't seem to have any use).
So English is German. Just uber-corrupted (or uber-improved, depending on how you view the modern day English language).
So English is German. Just uber-corrupted (or uber-improved, depending on how you view the modern day English language).
Valdemar II
Banned
The Anglo-Saxons spoke a language that did not exist then?
They spoke a Germanic language. The "ic" is very important, as I am sure Susano will remind you.
So? All language* was that way at the time. English in the 9th century was as much a German dialect as Plattdeutsch was in 15th century.
But if we want to keep English as a German dialect, let Charles the Great conquer Denmark in the early 9th century, that would keep the Danish and Normannic influence out of England, later on English cities could become part of the Hanse**, which would keep English as a Low German dialect with the large number of Plattdeutsch merchants in Hanse cities.
*With the exception of scholary language which was de facto dead outside of the small group of Scholars which spoke them: Hebrew, Latin, Ancient Greek etc
**Something like the Hanse is unavoideble.
English is still a Germanic language. The difference between our language and Germanic languages is largely our isolation from those languages and our introduction the vast literary corpus of the French language. This is what sets English apart from other Germanic languages in that most of its "educated" vocabulary- particularly that involving the government, comes from French.
It is true that English was once far more Germanic then it is now. English was very close and completely mutually intelligeble with Frisian, a language spoken in what is now Frisieland in the Netherlands (although before it encompassed quite a bit more territory, extending all along the west coast of modern-day Netherlands and the western-north face of Germany). Although the original tribes are traditionally marked in the Heptarchy of England (a legend of seven kingdoms) as the Saxons, Jutes and Angles, there's been a considerable amount of rethinking towards this whole notion. This is of course because Old Frisian and Old English share many similarities. I actually managed to pull out a sample text of a rhyme the old two shared, that I'm sure you can all make out:
Brea, bûter, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk
(Bread, buter and green cheese is good English and good Fries).
It's interesting to think of how England would've developed linguistically had the Norman Invasion not been successful. The Normans were largely responsible for outting English, because traditionally the Norman noble-class replaced the English nobles following the succesful take-over of the mainland. French was the norm (specifically Norman French) so alot of our language revolved around borrowed words, and spoken English died out for much of the noble classes until much later (it was comparable to the situation in Bohemia with Czech). It saw a resurgance when the Normans eventually began speaking English and merging the two, resulting in a very mixed and messed up version of English (Middle English). English used to have noun cases like German and shared many words- but it wasn't completely German, and was never mutually intelligble with any of the mainland dialects (so we think).
It is possible for English not to have come out the way it is. It's highly devolved and analytical- largely due first to French influence then our immense borrowing of many other linguistic corpus' and such. I think had the Normans not invaded- and England remained, or just a portion of England remained in the hands of the Anglo-Saxons, you would yes see a Germanic language like today- most likely very similar to Frisian (unless of course they lost contact to them and, like in our time developed a bunch of weird alternatives to their old grammar).
Really cool subject.
It is true that English was once far more Germanic then it is now. English was very close and completely mutually intelligeble with Frisian, a language spoken in what is now Frisieland in the Netherlands (although before it encompassed quite a bit more territory, extending all along the west coast of modern-day Netherlands and the western-north face of Germany). Although the original tribes are traditionally marked in the Heptarchy of England (a legend of seven kingdoms) as the Saxons, Jutes and Angles, there's been a considerable amount of rethinking towards this whole notion. This is of course because Old Frisian and Old English share many similarities. I actually managed to pull out a sample text of a rhyme the old two shared, that I'm sure you can all make out:
Brea, bûter, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk
(Bread, buter and green cheese is good English and good Fries).
It's interesting to think of how England would've developed linguistically had the Norman Invasion not been successful. The Normans were largely responsible for outting English, because traditionally the Norman noble-class replaced the English nobles following the succesful take-over of the mainland. French was the norm (specifically Norman French) so alot of our language revolved around borrowed words, and spoken English died out for much of the noble classes until much later (it was comparable to the situation in Bohemia with Czech). It saw a resurgance when the Normans eventually began speaking English and merging the two, resulting in a very mixed and messed up version of English (Middle English). English used to have noun cases like German and shared many words- but it wasn't completely German, and was never mutually intelligble with any of the mainland dialects (so we think).
It is possible for English not to have come out the way it is. It's highly devolved and analytical- largely due first to French influence then our immense borrowing of many other linguistic corpus' and such. I think had the Normans not invaded- and England remained, or just a portion of England remained in the hands of the Anglo-Saxons, you would yes see a Germanic language like today- most likely very similar to Frisian (unless of course they lost contact to them and, like in our time developed a bunch of weird alternatives to their old grammar).
Really cool subject.
Susano
Banned
Eh, English is the bastard child of the Germanic language family - the language ,most apart from the others, after the Normans brought it clsoer to the Romance languages. Still, as rcduggan said, lets not confuse Germanic and German - so far the trheads been good about that , German is only one among many Germanic language. Just because England will maybe speak a more Germanic language doesnt mean the challenge is met.
As for Germans existance... well, yes, it was not much existant. It existed as a dialect continuum, as has been said, which is called "Old High German"*, but there was no centre of it, or rather, every tribal duchy was its own lingual centre. So, yes, it would be probably more correct to grant that every tribal duchy had its own language. Only with the 11th century and "Middle High German"* did a German language form. Still, its theoretically possible that the Anglo-Saxon-Jutic dialects of the British islands could have taken part in that development. That is the key.
That requries several changes. First, the Normans or any other sort of Frenchmen may not conquer England, to avoid the romantisation. And second, England must be tied somehow to Germany. I am no expert in this epoch, but could we maybe somehow have closer contacts between the Island Saxons and the Continental Saxons? To the point of dynastic unions, so as to tie England to the German Kingdom/HRE (if it emerges in Germany ITTL). I fit is tied to Germany that way, it will not be an own lingual centre, but be influenced by the court and "official" German arising at that time, which helped to unify the German language.
Or, come to think about it, just HRE-English dynastical union might be enough. theres the timeline A Salian England by leonardocruzbr, though as taht is after the Norman invasion thats probably already too late. Though, its possible to have a scenario wheres theres no Norman invasion and then some other form fo dynastical union between England and Germany, without contacts prior. That even might be enough, but having continous contacts as propsoed in the paragraph above might additionally helo
*it is to be noted here that "High German" means "Standard German", not "Upper German" as in the dialects of South Germany.
, German is only one among many Germanic language. Just because England will maybe speak a more Germanic language doesnt mean the challenge is met.As for Germans existance... well, yes, it was not much existant. It existed as a dialect continuum, as has been said, which is called "Old High German"*, but there was no centre of it, or rather, every tribal duchy was its own lingual centre. So, yes, it would be probably more correct to grant that every tribal duchy had its own language. Only with the 11th century and "Middle High German"* did a German language form. Still, its theoretically possible that the Anglo-Saxon-Jutic dialects of the British islands could have taken part in that development. That is the key.
That requries several changes. First, the Normans or any other sort of Frenchmen may not conquer England, to avoid the romantisation. And second, England must be tied somehow to Germany. I am no expert in this epoch, but could we maybe somehow have closer contacts between the Island Saxons and the Continental Saxons? To the point of dynastic unions, so as to tie England to the German Kingdom/HRE (if it emerges in Germany ITTL). I fit is tied to Germany that way, it will not be an own lingual centre, but be influenced by the court and "official" German arising at that time, which helped to unify the German language.
Or, come to think about it, just HRE-English dynastical union might be enough. theres the timeline A Salian England by leonardocruzbr, though as taht is after the Norman invasion thats probably already too late. Though, its possible to have a scenario wheres theres no Norman invasion and then some other form fo dynastical union between England and Germany, without contacts prior. That even might be enough, but having continous contacts as propsoed in the paragraph above might additionally helo
*it is to be noted here that "High German" means "Standard German", not "Upper German" as in the dialects of South Germany.
Actually, Rollo and his men were from Norway, not Denmark. "Dane" was a catch all term medival chroniclers used for Vikings, regardless of where they really came from (And the fact that chroniclers thought "Dania" and "Dacia" were the same place didn't help matters).