AH Challenge: Finland joins the Allies

[bard32]

IOTL, Finland joined the Axis after the Winter War of 1939-40, your challenge,
if you choose to accept it, is to have Finland join the Allies. If you're the British
Prime Minister, or French President, whom would you send to Helsinki to convince Marshal Carl Mannerheim, the President of Finland, to join your fight
against the Axis?

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Are you just spamming threads, or there's something wrong with the board ?

 

[bard32]

Are you just spamming threads, or there's something wrong with the board ?

No, I'm not. I had a hard time posting this one. There's something wrong with this board.

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

First off, the Finnish weren't part of the Axis, they were "co-belligerents", which meant that, formally, they weren't fighting the UK or France, just the USSR. Now Finland has no reason to join the Allies, simply because they've got nothing to gain. They'll get invaded by the Nazis, or that'll be a reason for Hitler to keep his non-aggression pact longer, while the Soviets take more bites out of Allied Finland (with a German blessing, of course)...

No, your best odds are to keep Finalnd neutral, so the Soviets don't attack again, the Germans don't want their own Winter War, and the war against the Soviets has one less front...

 

[bard32]

First off, the Finnish weren't part of the Axis, they were "co-belligerents", which meant that, formally, they weren't fighting the UK or France, just the USSR. Now Finland has no reason to join the Allies, simply because they've got nothing to gain. They'll get invaded by the Nazis, or that'll be a reason for Hitler to keep his non-aggression pact longer, while the Soviets take more bites out of Allied Finland (with a German blessing, of course)...

No, your best odds are to keep Finalnd neutral, so the Soviets don't attack again, the Germans don't want their own Winter War, and the war against the Soviets has one less front...

I have a book that says otherwise. It's called America Goes To War and
it has a list of the members of the Axis. Finland's on that list.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

I have a book that says otherwise. It's called America Goes To War and
it has a list of the members of the Axis. Finland's on that list.

Amen~~

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

I have a book that says otherwise. It's called America Goes To War and
it has a list of the members of the Axis. Finland's on that list.

...as a co-belligerent. You'll notice Finland doesn't get occupied by the USSR post-WWII. Doesn't that seem a tad strange if they were full Axis members?

 

[Moglwi]

Finland

The Finnish Govt toke the opertunity of the german invasion to recaputer terotory lost in the winter war. The did not even advance to close the seige of leningrad at Hitlers urging besouse that was beyuond what there war aims where.

 

[DrakonFin]

I have a book that says otherwise. It's called America Goes To War and
it has a list of the members of the Axis. Finland's on that list.

The "Allies/Co-belligerents" discussion is a tricky thing to get into. To be honest, there is no consensus even in Finland, which is the correct reading of the situation.

For alliance:

- pre-meditated, concerted plans for the Finno-Soviet Front, which could be seen as a minor theatre of the Eastern Front
- defensive responsibility of Lapland handed over to the Wehrmacht to allow Finnish troops to be stationed in Karelia
- Finnish dependence on German war material and supplies

For co-belligerence

- no formal device of alliance was signed (until the "Ryti-Ribbentrop Pact" of 1944, which in itself was a ruse to get Finland out of the war), thus Finland wa not a part of "Axis Proper"
- as Kriegdämmerung pointed out, Finland only fought the Soviets and made this plain to the Western Allies
- Finland had clearly distinct war aims from Germany and the Finnish High Command regularly declined to act on German requests, for example concerning the Murmansk railroad
- no regular Finnish troops took part of Barbarossa under German command


The co-belligerence theory is one invented and propagated by the Finnish govenrment and the High Command in the event. And it did catch on quite well indeed, as the whole point of the operation was to save Finland from excessive Allied wrath and retaliation if Germany manages to lose. A way of hedging the bets, as it were, like many other actions of Finnish wartime leaders who were damn lucky in their efforts.

If I had to say something, I'd contend that Finland was a German ally, but not a member of the Axis, if someone can see any sense in that. Finland was always in the war only for itself, to regain lost territories, to create a defensible border. It joined the war when it seemed opportune and abandoned Germany when the going got too hot, maintaining a certain freedom of action in the between. I'd say this relative freedom of action is something that distinguishes Finland from most, if not all of Germany's "Real Axis " allies.

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

Thank you DrakonFin, for somewhat supporting what I said...

 

[Empror Mike]

Its real easy.The USSR has some dramatically surprising success in the Winter War (perhaps with involvement of Alien Space Bolsheviks) and establish a Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic. Germany feels so extremely threatened by the tremendous Russian victory against Finland, that they invade and attack both before Finland can even formerly join the USSR. Therefor, you have a supposedly independent Finland, actually a Russian stooge republic, fighting on the Allied side. This is, of course, assuming the Space Bolsheviks help the Reds versus the Nazis as well, so that the Nazis dont liberate Finland and allow her (her true, independent self) to fight alongside them.

 

[CalBear]

...
If I had to say something, I'd contend that Finland was a German ally, but not a member of the Axis, if someone can see any sense in that. Finland was always in the war only for itself, to regain lost territories, to create a defensible border. It joined the war when it seemed opportune and abandoned Germany when the going got too hot, maintaining a certain freedom of action in the between. I'd say this relative freedom of action is something that distinguishes Finland from most, if not all of Germany's "Real Axis " allies.

The Finnish situation was very much the case of "My enemy's enemy is my friend". They were willing to work with the Nazi's to stop the Bear from taking them over, but they didn't do anything to help the Reich that didn't advance their cause.

Probably the most revealing proof of the Finnish independent status is the fact that there was no wholesale deportation of Jews from Finland, even when Berlin pressured Helsinki to deport them.

 

[Hazazel]

I wonder if any other country had Jewish soldiers fighting on the same side with the Nazis...

 

[zoomar]

If it quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. Finland waged war alongside Germany against the USSR. The two nations sometimes collaborated in military operations, albeit under separate commands. Finland gladly accepted German material and logistic assistance and willingly allowed Germany to use Finnish territory as needed to process the war. Sure, they protected the few Jews they had control over from the Nazis and jealously preserved their political independence. So did Japan, in fact, and no one considers Japan anything less than a true German ally. Until Finland was forced into an Armistice with the USSR in 1944, Germany arguably treated Finland with far more respect as a true ally than any of its other European allies, including Italy. Finland was not a formal member of the Axis, but it was definitely a German ally in the Russian war, period. It was certainly more than a country which just happened to be fighting the USSR at the same time Germany was. Also Finland was not occupied or ruled by fascist puppets installed by Germany or German sympathizers. It was a democratic nation which chose, entirely on its own, to enter the war against the USSR and cooperate with Germany. To me this makes them really more of true German ally than Hungary and other central European nations who sent thousands of soldiers to the east which really had little choice in the matter.

As for the original question, it is hard to imagine Finland joining the allies given their antipathy towards the USSR, at least until the war was essentially over and they could to join the "let's-join-the-allies-now-that-the-war's-almost-over-so-we-can-become-charter-members-of-the-UN" club. If they joined anytime before 1944, they would be steamrollered by Germany. Britain and the US would be in no position to help them, and I wouldn't put it past Stalin to let Germany destroy Filnand so he could come in an pick the pieces up.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I wonder if any other country had Jewish soldiers fighting on the same side with the Nazis...

Intentionally, Probably None ...

However, there were Cases where Jewish Men went to Great Lengths to Hide out in The Wehrmacht ...

The Most Famous of whom was Solomon Perel, who even Played an Instrumental Role in The Capture of Stalin's Son, Yakov Dzhugashvili!

 

[MrP]

I wonder if any other country had Jewish soldiers fighting on the same side with the Nazis...

Well, Germany did,* so I'd not be surprised if some of her allies had a few.

* The military protected its own in many cases.

 

[Ferghus]

Hi there, new guy here. It seems this Bard fellow isnt liked on these boards to much...

Well, perhaps in the spirit of the non-agression treaty signed in september 1939, when the USSR goes into the winter war with Finland perhaps Germany declares its support of the USSR's actions?

The only other scenario I could possiably see is that when Germany invades Norway, Finland seeks allied support?

It just doesnt seem to likely an event. The Allies would have some difficulty getting men and material to Finland in any case, unlike the USSR thier only sea access is through the baltic sea.

 

[Tyr]

First off, the Finnish weren't part of the Axis, they were "co-belligerents", which meant that, formally, they weren't fighting the UK or France, just the USSR. Now Finland has no reason to join the Allies, simply because they've got nothing to gain. They'll get invaded by the Nazis, or that'll be a reason for Hitler to keep his non-aggression pact longer, while the Soviets take more bites out of Allied Finland (with a German blessing, of course)...

No, your best odds are to keep Finalnd neutral, so the Soviets don't attack again, the Germans don't want their own Winter War, and the war against the Soviets has one less front...

I have heard that the UK did formally go to war with Finland at some point fairly late on in the war.
That wikipedia says this though somewhat makes me doubt it though.

 

[MerryPrankster]

If the Brits and French had managed to put the hurt on the USSR (as an ally of Hitler) during the early days of WWII, Finland could be considered an Allied power.

The Brits and French considered bombing Baku and sending troops to Finland to fight the USSR, but nothing ever came of it.

 

[Finn]

I have a book that says otherwise. It's called America Goes To War and
it has a list of the members of the Axis. Finland's on that list.

This is supposed to convince us despite evidence to the contrary? Finland was fighting the Soviet Union. It was not fighting with the Nazis. It was not fighting any other Allies. It was just fighting the USSR. The Winter War was seperate from WWII.