AH Challenge: Dutch as a second language

[pompejus]

I recenly found out that Dutch is the easiest language to learn for people speaking English. The problem though is, why would anyone ever learn Dutch? Only few people speak Dutch and most of those speak English. So that is why I got this challenge:

With a POD of at least 1609* make it as normal for an kid in school to learn Dutch as a second language, as it is now for him or her to learn Spanish, French or German as a second language.

Couple of rules: It must actualy be Dutch, so not German that is called Dutch or something like that
Secondly the Netherlands must be independent, so no Netherlands unifies Germany or something like that



*start of the 12 year truce during the Dutch revolt. Basicly the time the Netherlands was more or less recognised as an independent country

 

[The Professor]

Perhaps it comes under English protection during Bess's reign then slides into some sort of federal union. Dutch would then be official 2nd language.

 

[SenatorErnesto]

Assuming this is in US schools and not U.K./ rest of anglophone world I think one would need to wank New Netherlands and consequential Dutch speakers' power in US....

Increase population of NN to include more area that can the be broken into more states once British annexation comes around

Allow for Dutch yeomanry to settle the areas and increase Dutch political influence within the greater colonial theatre

I'm talking 13 colonies where New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Vermont, maybe even Pennsylvania are either majority Dutch speaking or have sizable minorities

Thus when Declaration of Independence comes around have it written in both languages

Maybe have some Anti-Dutch crackdown in Napoleonic wars that leads to mass migration to the Dutch states

Eerie canal carries mainly Dutch speaker settlers to the Great Lakes region

Northern prarie states settled by Dutch speaking settlers

US has two official languages to the point everyone is required to learn Dutch even if they live in the South, West, New England in respect to the sizable Dutch speaking populace of the US

People in New York and other Dutch states teach Dutch first English second

 

[Pentapolim]

I recenly found out that Dutch is the easiest language to learn for people speaking English. The problem though is, why would anyone ever learn Dutch? Only few people speak Dutch and most of those speak English. So that is why I got this challenge:

With a POD of at least 1609* make it as normal for an kid in school to learn Dutch as a second language, as it is now for him or her to learn Spanish, French or German as a second language.

Couple of rules: It must actualy be Dutch, so not German that is called Dutch or something like that
Secondly the Netherlands must be independent, so no Netherlands unifies Germany or something like that



*start of the 12 year truce during the Dutch revolt. Basicly the time the Netherlands was more or less recognised as an independent country

Well, the problem with dutch is the original country where it is spoken. For a language to have an international status it needs to either have a lot of native speakers, or to be used extensively in a cultural and/or scientific scenario.

Dutch was a germanic language spoken by a minority of people in a relatively small region, in contrast to english and german, which were spoken by more people in larger areas. It also didn't have the prestige of french, nor the cultural impact of italian at that time.

The easiest way for a language to have more speakers is, of course, by coloniazation. However, by the POD you have set it becomes a lot harder to spread dutch in the americas. Too many rivals with rivals with larger populations to compete with. The Netherlands were, in many ways, similar to Portugal, though the latter was early enough to secure a large portion of lands in the americas, africa and asia without competition.

I also don't see dutch becoming the main language of Indonesia, at least not with domination strategy they used in OTL(the VOC). One has to remember that, though the dutch golden age was a very prosperous period, it was based more on trade and wealth control than in colonization, which means they weren't worried about bringing the dutch way of living, speaking and praying to other parts of the world, like Spain, Portugal, England and France did, though they were also seeking resources to exploit.

 

[wietze]

Well, the problem with dutch is the original country where it is spoken. For a language to have an international status it needs to either have a lot of native speakers, or to be used extensively in a cultural and/or scientific scenario.

Dutch was a germanic language spoken by a minority of people in a relatively small region, in contrast to english and german, which were spoken by more people in larger areas. It also didn't have the prestige of french, nor the cultural impact of italian at that time.

for quite a while dutch was actually used as a trade language, stemming from the impact the dutch had on international trade. and the fact that in the 17th century they were a great power (to such an extent they managed to successfully invade and countrol enland/ 1688).
and 1688 could be such a pod, parliament does not agree with william III becoming king, and keep insisting on mary.
the glorious invasion ittl turn into the glorious occupation. maybe some norman style langague replacement (this time dutch leaving an imprint on english)?

 

[Gloss]

I recenly found out that Dutch is the easiest language to learn for people speaking English. The problem though is, why would anyone ever learn Dutch? Only few people speak Dutch and most of those speak English. So that is why I got this challenge:

With a POD of at least 1609* make it as normal for an kid in school to learn Dutch as a second language, as it is now for him or her to learn Spanish, French or German as a second language.

Couple of rules: It must actualy be Dutch, so not German that is called Dutch or something like that
Secondly the Netherlands must be independent, so no Netherlands unifies Germany or something like that



*start of the 12 year truce during the Dutch revolt. Basicly the time the Netherlands was more or less recognised as an independent country

I mean if Netherland unifies Germany with the capital on a like Ruhr-Rhineland metropole that speaks Low Franconian, wouldn´t or shouldn´t that count?

I mean the only other way would be having a big enough colony but even with that you would need a stronger mainland to avoid having the French destroy your southern half every war.

 

[Gloss]

for quite a while dutch was actually used as a trade language, stemming from the impact the dutch had on international trade. and the fact that in the 17th century they were a great power (to such an extent they managed to successfully invade and countrol enland/ 1688).
and 1688 could be such a pod, parliament does not agree with william III becoming king, and keep insisting on mary.
the glorious invasion ittl turn into the glorious occupation. maybe some norman style langague replacement (this time dutch leaving an imprint on english)?

They didn´t invade, they were invited.

 

[edvardas]

Does Afrikaans count? If the Netherlands could hold on to the cape in 1800, you might see
Afrikaans become a second language like Swahili

 

[Pentapolim]

for quite a while dutch was actually used as a trade language, stemming from the impact the dutch had on international trade. and the fact that in the 17th century they were a great power (to such an extent they managed to successfully invade and countrol enland/ 1688).
and 1688 could be such a pod, parliament does not agree with william III becoming king, and keep insisting on mary.
the glorious invasion ittl turn into the glorious occupation. maybe some norman style langague replacement (this time dutch leaving an imprint on english)?

How could the dutch occupy england? They were excellent seamen, even more so than the english at some point, but occupying england requires a serious set of alliances and guarantees. If it is indeed a forced union, how can they keep England submissive? It would be the same as Portugal occupying Spain in the end of the 15th century.

 

[pompejus]

I mean if Netherland unifies Germany with the capital on a like Ruhr-Rhineland metropole that speaks Low Franconian, wouldn´t or shouldn´t that count?

The Netherlands somehow gaining the Ruhr and other areas of Germany bordering the Netherlands. The Netherlands unifying Germany doesn't. To clarify Bavaria and Prussia should not be in the same country as the Netherlands proper. If you can make them speak Dutch that is fine though.

 

[wietze]

They didn´t invade, they were invited.

130 warships, 400 transports and 23k soldiers say otherwise. it was the biggest invasion until normandy.

How could the dutch occupy england? They were excellent seamen, even more so than the english at some point, but occupying england requires a serious set of alliances and guarantees. If it is indeed a forced union, how can they keep England submissive? It would be the same as Portugal occupying Spain in the end of the 15th century.

i would say read up on that invasion. and also remember that william and mary were # 3 and 2 in the line of succession.
also william gave a fair amount of dutch english noble titles. william is semi-legit. with parliament pushed aside, it going to be a heck of trouble to get them out once they are in.

 

[Gloss]

130 warships, 400 transports and 23k soldiers say otherwise. it was the biggest invasion until normandy.

Biggest invasion what? Naval invasion? Not even that really, Imjin war beats that easily.

They basically landed without any resistance afterwards, but I guess by definition that´s an invasion like the Normandy landing is, but for practical purposes it´s not.

 

[ennobee]

The problem is population. The Netherlands OTL have about 12 miliin inhabitants. Belgian Flanders, which officially speaks Dutch but in reality speaks a different dialect in every city, has 6 million. Even if we wank Dutch influence into every piece of land between Calais and Hamburg, we barely have 20 million speakers tops.

So the only way I can see Dutch being a tier one language is for the Dutch to be much more successful in the New World, New Amsterdam never getting conquered and becoming New York and such... I already heard one scholar suggest that due to the Dutch settlers New England was British in loyalty and language but otherwise a mirror of old Amsterdam in culture and worldview... May be if either the Dutch held on to their colonies or simply held on to their language, the US today would be Dutch speaking... I guess that would make the language a work player by itself...

 

[avernite]

I see a multi-step project...

1) More Dutch success in Brazil, so basically half of Brazil is a Dutch possession with a large Portuguese minority.
2) More Dutch success in the New Netherlands region, as described above by SenatorErnesto
3) No Stadhouderloos tijdperk. Or at least, not the second one. This will preserve half of Gelre, Lingen, etc. as Dutch possessions.
4) Longer Dutch success during the 30YW era, resulting in Cleves becoming a Dutch possession rather than occupation/puppet/garrison

I am not sure how to make this happen, though. One PoD with butterflies could secure 1 or 2 together with 3, and 4 won't need too big butterflies, but a persistently strong focus to keep half of Brazil and a large NAmerican colony is pretty tough given the lack of profit involved in an early settler colony.

 

[funnyhat]

Perhaps it comes under English protection during Bess's reign then slides into some sort of federal union. Dutch would then be official 2nd language.

OTOH, Dutch could potentially decline, if we use the non-English languages of the British Isles as an indication. The monarch also might favor the establishment of English colonies over Dutch ones. I think the Dutch Republic needs to remain independent.

The best-case scenario might be if the Franco-Dutch alliance never breaks. IOTL, the Dutch had to divert some resources toward land defenses to protect against French invasion, which ultimately weakened their power projection at sea. If France is friendly, they don't have to do that.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Dutch South Africa wank, basically, combined with New Netherland maintaining a successful identity even with British North America. I'd argue you don't even need to go as far as to make New Amsterdam/New York remain Dutch speaking, you just need a Dutch-speaking state (maybe large parts of the Upstate secedes from New York City, maybe elsewhere in former New Netherland we can get a Quebec-type situation and a Dutch-speaking state--maybe Delaware or New Jersey?).

So if Dutch (we'll just have Afrikaans never become a language) is the official language of South Africa, *Namibia, and hell, why not everywhere south of the Zambezi, with millions (possibly tens of millions) of native speakers as well as tens of millions of second-language speakers and has a significant presence in the United States so much that one state speaks Dutch and only Dutch and a few more states have it as co-official with English, it would be very normal for people to learn Dutch, including in New York City.

 

[joho6411]

A dialect called "Jersey Dutch" was spoken in Northern New Jersey until the 1930's. What "killed" it was the effects of the Great Depression, with many younger folks going to nearby New York City for work or elsewhere. Also, the rise of first, radio, then movies, and lastly, T.V., further eroded the small linguistic isolate. Then suburbanization which drew many away from the area and newer people to move in to these areas in Bergen, Passaic, and parts of Sussex and Morris Counties between the mid 1950's thru early 1970's. On the NY State Thruway, first or second exit heading north, I recall seeing in around 1971 or '72, old, worn out billboards that had old advertisements that were partially written/printed in Dutch. Jersey Dutch was spoken by only a few elderly folk by the 1970's but most of them probably spoke American English when they went about their business away from home.

Joho

P.S. Blue, White, & Orange are the Dutch colors and...also the colors of New York City's flag as well as the colors of the NY Mets.

 

[Byzantion]

I recenly found out that Dutch is the easiest language to learn for people speaking English. The problem though is, why would anyone ever learn Dutch? Only few people speak Dutch and most of those speak English. So that is why I got this challenge:

With a POD of at least 1609* make it as normal for an kid in school to learn Dutch as a second language, as it is now for him or her to learn Spanish, French or German as a second language.

Couple of rules: It must actualy be Dutch, so not German that is called Dutch or something like that
Secondly the Netherlands must be independent, so no Netherlands unifies Germany or something like that



*start of the 12 year truce during the Dutch revolt. Basicly the time the Netherlands was more or less recognised as an independent country

Suriname with Dutch as a lingua Franca. Also Indonesian Chinese become Protestant and Dutch fluent during Dutch rule. Maybe far more mixed relationships in Indonesia between Dutch and Indonesians.

 

[SenatorErnesto]

A dialect called "Jersey Dutch" was spoken in Northern New Jersey until the 1930's. What "killed" it was the effects of the Great Depression, with many younger folks going to nearby New York City for work or elsewhere. Also, the rise of first, radio, then movies, and lastly, T.V., further eroded the small linguistic isolate. Then suburbanization which drew many away from the area and newer people to move in to these areas in Bergen, Passaic, and parts of Sussex and Morris Counties between the mid 1950's thru early 1970's. On the NY State Thruway, first or second exit heading north, I recall seeing in around 1971 or '72, old, worn out billboards that had old advertisements that were partially written/printed in Dutch. Jersey Dutch was spoken by only a few elderly folk by the 1970's but most of them probably spoke American English when they went about their business away from home.

Joho

P.S. Blue, White, & Orange are the Dutch colors and...also the colors of New York City's flag as well as the colors of the NY Mets.

My current city of Albany has a Blue, White and Orange flag too; place was known as Beverwyck at one time

 

[Jürgen]

I think that the Dutch keeping the Cape and Belgium could pretty result in this.

Let's say that the Dutch get to keep Cape and the Belgium Revolution fails. The synergy effect of a bigger state with large colonial markets (South Africa and indonesia) would result in bigger industrialisation. Belgium was laready at the forefront, but I suspect that we could very well have seen one of the industrial areas of Belgium turning into another Ruhr district if they had this. So let's say that Benelux end up with 40 million people by modern day instead of 30 millions. So we have have placed a Spain sized (population wise) country across the water from UK.

At the same time in South Africa we see more of a Latin American development with Christian Dutch speaking Africans and coloured being seen as Black Dutch instead of a separate ethnic group, at the same time the Cape authorities push a whitening campaign with European immigration being supported, without the fear of English takeover the Afrikaans would likely embrace this, at the same time supporting intermarriage (through primarily between White men and African or Asian women, they're still racist 19th century Europeans). At the same time Indian and Indonesian workers are imported who end up using Dutch as lingua franca. So fundamental by the 20th century South Africa are a majority Dutch speaking country, through still with a African majority.

In Indonesia the large Dutch population allow for greater Dutch expansion and the Dutch end up with all of Borneo and New Guinea. The large population in the homeland also result in more Dutch and mixed raced people living in Indonesia and this together with a greater focus on the Dutch language at home result in Dutch being made fully official language and the Dutch pushing it as Lingua Franca, at the same time the increase Lutheran community in the Netherlands (from German immigration) and the large Catholic majority result in more missionering in the Indonesia. All in all there's a larger Christian minority in Indonesia and a large Indo community, at the same time the use of Dutch see the rise of a community of native Dutch speakers mostly in Batavia. But the local Indonesian intelligensia end up mostly Dutch speaking.

We may also see the Dutch end up with East Timor (maybe the Dutch trade the Pink Map for East Timor) and Philippines (the Spanish selling it before the Americans or someone else can take it). Through a stronger Netherland taking Formosa back and making Japan into a "protectorate" while unlikely are not all that far out. The result will be Dutch will be a important European trading language but also widely used in Africa and East Asia, if we mix this with some French fuck ups through the 19th century. It's not impossible that the British and Germans may decide to adopt Dutch as 1st foreign language in their schools, while the Scandinavians as one of their 2nd foreign languages (after German).