AH Challenge: Different WWII alliances

[Evil_evol]

Hello,

Started brainstorming on how and what wwII would've looked like if Britain was fascist/national socialist and allied to Italy and Germany, and France and Republican Spain (the nationalists lose the civil war) was a part of the comintern. I understand the implausability of this happening, but still, how would the conflict develop, given these alliances? What would be a good starting year/triggering event for the war itself?

 

[Thande]

Obvious one: Nazi Germany, fascist Britain and Eastern Europe versus Communist Russia, Italy, France and Spain.

 

[Dave Bender]

WWI Ended Differently

June 1918
========
The U.S. army is 6 months slower training and deploying to Europe then what happened historically. The spring 1918 German offensive takes Paris, but cannot advance much further.

British, French, and German troop morale plummets. No one can launch a major offensive as the soldiers refuse to move forward.

The British and French populations demand an end to the war now. They are not willing to wait another 6 months for U.S. forces to arrive. German citizens are also demonstrating for peace.

August 1918 Treaty of Rotterdam is signed, ending WWI in Europe.
====================================================
- No reparations paid by anyone.
- June 1914 borders restored in the west.
- The Allies keep Germany's overseas colonies.
- Germany absorbs the German speaking parts of Austria-Hungary.
- Poland becomes an independent nation. It does not include any territory populated by ethnic Germans.
- The Baltic States, Ukraine, Belerus, and Finland become independent nations.
- Czeck Republic and Slovak Republic become independent nations.
- Hungary becomes an independent nation.
- The Balkans become a fractured mess, perpetually at war.

September 1918
============
U.S. forces are finally ready to deloy to Europe in quantity. Britain and France angrily tell President Wilson "You are too late. We don't need you anymore."

1919 - 1930 Europe in turmoil.
====================================================
The entire European population is fed up with the leaders, and systems of government, that lead them into the slaughter of WWI.
- Britain hangs together, but experiences plenty of government changes.
- France goes communist.
- The German general staff, with the backing of the German people, escort Kaiser Wilhelm II to the Dutch border and tell him not to come back. After a few rocky years Germany becomes a constitution monarchy with Wilhelm III as a figurehead Kaiser. By 1930 Germany is stable, with Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck as chancellor.
- Lenin and his cronies are a bit more successful then what happened historically. Taking advantage of the turmoil in Germany, Belerus and Ukraine are invaded and occupied.
- With some German assistance, the Baltic States and Poland manage to resist being absorbed into the Soviet Union. They remain independent nations, closely aligned with Germany.

1929 - 1935 Great Depression.
====================================================
Conflicts in Eastern Europe and the Balkans sputter to a halt. Economic survival takes priority over military adventures.

1936 Spanish Civil War begins.
====================================================
- France, allied with the Soviet Union, supports the communist (er, Republican) government. Germany and Britain support General Franco's forces.
- Italy does not care who wins in Spain. While everyone else is preoccupied they seize Trieste, Albania, and Ethiopia.
- Japan seizes Manchuria, and considers seizing IndoChina.

1939 The Gloves Come Off. WWII Begins.
====================================================
After fighting each other by proxy for 3 years (in Spain), the British-German alliance comes to blows directly with the French-Russian alliance. Some say a border incident sparked it off. Others say it was intentional.

- Britain and Germany are allies. Both are constitutional monarchies.
- France and the Soviet Union are allies. Both are communist.
- The smaller Eastern European nations are German Allies. They are all terrified of Stalin's Soviet Union.
- Italy is fascist. They will ally with either side if the price is right.
- Japan is doing it's own thing in the Pacific while Europe is preoccupied.
- U.S. has it's historical government. Not sure which way they will jump.

 

[Evil_evol]

the fuse is lit

I liked your ideas. Here is my humble contiuation. However, I have no idea how the rest of the commonwealth would react to a more nationalistic and agressive british monarchy (I picture the british monarch somewhere along the lines of Richard III in the 90's AH movie adaptation of the play).

November 1939 - The fuse is lit
Finnish government officials, within the German sphere of influence, frightened of Stalins expansionistic policies, ally with the British and Germany, in the nick of time. Only days after the deals are signed, the finnish winter war begins and ends in total soviet victory.

Britain, the USSR, Germany and France begin moblilizing troops and the world holds its breath. The Americans, still under the impression that Europe does'nt even want them around (like the last time) goes even more isolationistic than in OTL.

The French seizes to send volunteers and materiel and launches an invasion of Spain.

1940 - Pawns of the european chessboard
Stalin's officials see the strategic importance of controlling the Baltic and the northern sea, and contiues to push west, into Norway and Sweden. Germany in turn, invade and annex Denmark (official government propaganda paints the picture of Denmark as yet another rouge german state that avoided the unification in the 1870's). The British take control of Iceland and Greenland. By May '40 the stage is set for fighting in northern Europe...

France, protected by the canal and a maginot-like line in the east invade Spain and manage to capture Madrid, which falls on April 25th, 1940. Pockets of nationalists, royalists and partisans remain, however, mainly in the south where they are supplied by the british in Gibraltar. By fall the Socialist Republic of Spain is a part of the commintern, but the government is weak and the domestic turmoil is enormous.


What next? What does Germany-Britain do, exept for the annexation of Denmark? What will happen to eastern Europe and the balkans? A map anyone? Japan? Also, if anything of the above seems to implausible, please notify me. Also, i was wondering if the Soviet intelligence could have any luck trying to fuel the Irish proletariat (which, if I'm not mistaken, was quite alot of people at this time) and their hatred against the british, with the goal being to create a communist state on the British Isles.

 

[Forum Lurker]

I'd expect that Japan would seek at least a non-aggression pact with the constitutional monarchies, if not outright alliance; this will allow it to safely invade the Dutch East Indies by sea, and obtain access to the vital oil and steel denied it in OTL. Having done so, I'd expect a Pearl Harbor-style strike against the Phillipines, swiftly followed by a naval invasion, to secure the supply train. Australia is off-limits thanks to their treaty, but that leaves French Indo-China as a very vulnerable target; the bulk of the land forces will invade there, while the navy attempts to build up to the point at which it can resist the inevitable American retaliation.

If the Japanese don't have an alliance with Britain and Germany, but merely a non-aggression pact, they may take a different route with regards to the Phillipines: inducing the Filipinos to begin a guerilla campaign against the American occupiers, and supplying them with arms. While likely a much better idea in the long run, being far, far less likely to spark the highly isolationist U.S. into action, it might not be acceptable to Japanese high command.

 

[Dave Bender]

Invade the Dutch East Indies

Historically the Dutch were good friends with Germany, even if they were not outright allies. And in this scenerio Britain is allied with Germany.

So there is no reason for Japan to invade the East Indies. The Dutch government will happily sell oil to Japan (for market price), with the encouragement of both Britain and Germany.

I'm not sure Japan will want to tangle with the U.S. unless there is some assurance that most of the U.S. military will be going to Europe. Historically the U.S. was heavily involved in the European conflict prior to Dec 7, 1941.

FDR is a wildcard in this scenerio. However if the U.S. enters the European conflict at all I suspect it will be on the side of Britain. FDR and Churchill were good friends.

 

[Forum Lurker]

Right. I'd assumed a Dutch annexation, a la OTL, forgetting that a monarchy would be less inclined to such.

Japan, then, invades and easily conquers all of French Indochina, builds its fleet to crush the Russian northern fleet while Britain and Germany destroy the French navy, and wages a considerably more successful war against China.

If the U.S. enters on the constitutional monarchist side, we watch Communism completely disappear; even if not, France and Russia are still doomed, but may survive with governments partially intact.

 

[fhaessig]

November 1939 - The French seizes to send volunteers and materiel and launches an invasion of Spain.

.

In 1939? Sorry that's ASB business. If you want a french intervention in Spain, you need a PoD in 1937. You may be able to get one over Guernica. However, one thing is sure is that a french intervention in Spain is going to crush the soviet-backed faction, as the french will support the legitimate government and not the anarchist. So this will actually make for bad blood between french and soviet and not alliance.

 

[Forum Lurker]

The PoD was well before 1937, so no ASBs are required.

 

[Nicole]

The invasion of Denmark makes little sense. For one thing, your explanation of a "rouge German state" is like calling Canada a german state, as Denmark, especially pre-WW1 Denmark, really has no notable German-speaking minority... Also, Denmark often acted as a subordinate state to Germany following the Second War of Schleswig.

 

[eschaton]

As a nitpick. I sincerely doubt if France had a socialist revolution that it would have kept its colonies. Either they would have been occupied, and lost in the chaos of the revolution, or the Communist government would spin them off into, at the very least, puppet states.

 

[Jason]

Internal British Problems in this idea...

Any sort of Nazi/Nat Soc Britain could have some serious internal problems, in the East End of London if nothing else! There were large Jewish communities in places like East Ham, West Ham, etc, plus large other 'minorities'...a lot of whom worked the docks.

Perhaps the USSR plays on this, encouraging civil strife and when war breaks out somehow arms an anti-Nazi movement, might be a bit farfetch to see an uprising in East London but you never know...

 

[re2005]

U.S. sits this one out, too. sells whatever it can to anyone that will buy. there has to be some urgent reason for them to get involved. freedom of navigation, direct attack, et al.