AH Challenge: Cold War Between America and British Empire/ Commonwealth

An idea I've had which could have nice potential for a TL I thought. Anyway, your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have a Cold War between the USA and British Empire/Commonwealth lasting at least forty years of the 20th century. Either side could come out triumphant, I'm just interested to see how many ideas this pops up.

Bonus points for:
Britain retaining its entire Empire throughout the Cold War.
A plausible Vietnam/Afghanistan war for either side.
India staying united.
The rest of the World being split into US/British camps.

Hope to get some interesting ideas out of this. Hope to hear from some people soon!
 
I dont know if ireland is still under british control at this point or has become a republic and britian keeps nothern Ireland.

You can have Britian reinvading ireland and using the west irish coast as good stragic Air bases and naval bases.

have the iron curtain begin at the Western approaches.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Some terrible infectuous disease strikes mainland Europe in the '00s, and leads to the collapse of most industrial states. Britain and the USA both manage to survive by enforcing strict quarantines around their coasts.

Eventually, the disease dies down and the Britain and America ease their quarantines. In Europe, the royal families of Germany and Russia are all but eradicated, and so, the thrones of these nations are inherited by George V of Great Britain and Ireland.

The immediate post-epidemic era sees a period of unchallenged British expansionism, the Windsoric Realms are incorporated within the British Empire, French-held Africa is swiftly annexed and control over existing colonies is cemented.

The post-epidemic British Empire is run in a much more efficient way than its pre-epidemic form, people around the world are embued with a sense that the epidemic could have nearly destroyed civilisation, and that from now on, things must be done a lot better. Economic development is considered the main goal of the Empire.

Meanwhile, France, surrounded by Windsoric Realms to the north and east, and anarchy across the Pyrennese, feels increasingly insecure. In 1932, they sign a Treaty of Political Union with the United States. The USA has emerged from its period of epidemic-inspired isolationism, and feels itself destined to end the imperialism of the British. The arrival of the Americans onto European soil leads to the British re-evaluating France as a collapsed power, to a possible threat, and war is declared. British Germany succeeds in extending its border westward. Anti-British sentiment grows.

As the years go by, recently recovering nations feel compelled to either ally themselves to the USA, or the British Empire. Iberia, Italy, Turkey and Scandanavia join the American Bloc, while most of the rest of Eurasia lies under the political domination of London. By this time, a party calling themselves the New Whigs have acheived political monopoly within Britain, their ideology is secular, modernist and borderline-totalitarian in their intolerance of difference and opposition.

In 1953, the British Empire marches out of the Balkans and the Caucasus with the intention of conquering American-alligned Turkey. This leads to a huge war between Britain and the US. During this war the New Whigs abolish parliamentary democracy within Britain and scrap the remaining elements of civil rule in Germany and Russia and establish a federation of totalitarian one-party states, each owing supreme loyalty to Westminster.

While the War goes moderately well for America, both sides eventually begin to suffer from fatigue, and the war quickly comes to an end in 1956, when the British Empire drops two nuclear bombs on Paris and Marseille. This changes the tide, and a peace is hammered out at a conference just outside Toronto.

By 1958, the USA also developes nuclear weapons, and a delicate Balance of Terror begins to assert itself. Heavy fortifications are established along the borders of France, Scandanavia and Italy. These nations are officially subserviant to Washington, but retain a significant degree of autonomy and political freedom. However, social freedoms and welfare systems are much less established that in TTL, as such things are considered Whigish and anti-American.

In 1964, the Empire of Japan, the world's third biggest power, launches an attack against Pearl Harbour in Hawai'i. This leads to a war between Japan and the United States, the early campaign is characterised by island hopping, as both combatants push forward into each others islands, before being pushed back and so forth... Eventually, the USA acheives the upper hand, and comes into a position where it can invade the Home Islands. It is predicted by many that any invasion of Japan would become a complete quagmire, and that popular resistance would render their mission impossible. A few experts claim tactical nuclear strikes against Japan will be enough to amputate much of the resistance, but it is considered that such an action could perhaps lead to a retaliation from the British, and thus nuclear armageddon. And so, an old fashioned occupation of Japan begins, and as suspected, it is a total quagmire. The Emperor and his Government flee to Eastern China, where they are supported by the British, and where they, in turn, support the resistance in Japan.

The Japan War continues for twenty years as the Americans prove themselves again and again to be completely unable to curb a popular resistance. However, the USA does manage to support an underground resistance to the Japanese within Eastern China, and as they finally leave the Home Islands in 1985, they leave a full-fledged revolution against the Tenno in Mainland China. The Chinese overthrow their colonial masters and establish their own, free, pro-American state. The Japanese Imperialists flee back to Japan, but find that since a whole generation has grown up without their direct rulership that they are no longer welcomed, after another eight years of civil war, Japan establishes itself as the world's first, and only, socialist state in 1993.

In the meantime, things are not looking so settled for the British Empire. In Europe, the threat of American invasion is looking increasingly slim, and many, especially in Germany and Western Russia, begin to wonder why they should subject to Whigish domination to avoid it. In 1968, the German Nationalist Congress is established, with the aim of overthrowing British rule. In 1970, a similar organisation is set up in India, and in 1972, Russian nationalists join the fore. The London Whigs do their best to have these seccessionists sent to the Rehabilitation Camps in Siberia, but the seed of dissent is already deeply planted.

These whisperings eventually promote themselves to fully-fledged uprisings, and those in the USA who remain optimistic, (despite the events of Japan), begin to suspect that the British Empire is on the brink of collapse.

In 1987, German Nationalists seize control of Berlin and declare the Independence of the Third Reich of the German Nation. The Whigs in London have by this point come to realise that even within the regiments of loyalists in Russia and India, that they do not have the capacity to overthrow such revolts militarily, and as the months go on, the Germans notice that no tanks have rolled in, and so, the German state spreads and spreads. In 1990, Britain recognises Germany's independence.

This causes a domino effect, and soon, provinces of the British Empire around the world begin to declare their independence. In 1991, Canada declares independence, and later seeks to join the United States. In 1992, British South, British East, and British West Africa agree to form a federal African state. In the same year, the Federation of Belarus is formed from the former British territories of Finland, Poland, Ukrain and Western Russia - Transural Russia remains loyal to the British Empire.

India, however, remains Whigish heartland. The policies of responsible developement and mandated social harmony espoused by the New Whigs proved popular amongst the Indians, and when India finally did divorce itself from London in 1995, it did so under a radical Whigish coup, formed by individuals who felt that London was moving away from its own political ideals. The Indian Whigs continue to exercise complete political control to this day.

Meanwhile, in Europe, political plurality and democracy is on the march. Germany and Belarus both eventually join the international organisation borne of America and France's early union. The Atlantic Union guarantees free trade, free movement of goods and persons, small government... in short, a libertarian paradise.

The Whigs eventually collapse in Britain proper in 1997, and a period of political chaos and instability takes over, the British Empire, with its sole loyal province in Siberia, continues to chugg along, throwing abuse as the American World Order, whilst itself making little developement into democracy...
 
An interesting scenario there. Quite ASB'ish but some good bits. Thought of it just off the bat?
 
An idea I've had which could have nice potential for a TL I thought. Anyway, your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have a Cold War between the USA and British Empire/Commonwealth lasting at least forty years of the 20th century. Either side could come out triumphant, I'm just interested to see how many ideas this pops up.

Bonus points for:
Britain retaining its entire Empire throughout the Cold War.
A plausible Vietnam/Afghanistan war for either side.
India staying united.
The rest of the World being split into US/British camps.

Hope to get some interesting ideas out of this. Hope to hear from some people soon!

My take:

Bismarck dies as an infant. Without him, German unification takes a little longer. Some Wilhelm-II-like Romanticist rises to power instead. By the time Germany is united in the late 1880s, the Germans have an overseas empire as well as an iron-fisted ruling class and some other unnecesary imperialist elements.

While German leaders hope that in the next war they will unite with either Britain or France against the other, Britain and France end-up uniting against them.
The Reich Wars are two wars fought between a coalition of countries lead by Britain and France on one side, and Germany, Hungary and some balkan allies on the other. The wars are fought in the begining of the 20th century, and prove to be disastrous and terrible on an unprecedented scale. The second war leaves Germay ruined, poor, stripped of it's imperial holdings, confederated, and humiliated. Several strategic miscommunication failures and conflicting interests also lead to the disbandment of the coalition, and to a rising "international bully" status for Britain.

Since France continued to maintain a "land power" status, Britain ends-up controlling most of Africa and greater possesions in the far east. These help them survive the war and prosper afterwards. Spanish involvment in the Reich Wars leads to the USA conquering the entire Spanish colonial empire, giving it colonial borders with Britain.

As Anglo-French relations worsened steadily throughout the 1920s and 30s, Japan sought to take hold of the opportunity and take over France's sphere of influence in the far east. The situation soon escalated into a Japanese invasion of French Indochina and hostilities between Chinese factions and the Japanese military. France prepared a massive counteroffensive (largest amphibian invasion in history, and at such a distance), convincing Russia to join-in with her.
Before anyone could do anything to stop the war they did not want, England and Japan were pitted against France and Russia. This became the World War and resulted in several dozen million deaths. The United States stayed neutral for most of the conflict, only none-violently siezing French Morocco and West Africa. By the war's end, China and Japan were smashed to pieces, Russia was revolutionized, and France was occupied by British forces.

The British bloc soon adopted a rather simple approach to things: conservative economics coupled with disintegrated and federated countries is good for us. Any threats to governmental control, "free trade", or ethnic stability is a danger to be dealt with ruthlessly.

The American bloc, on the other hand, adopted a "manifest destiny" style of thinking just like they do in our days. American romanticist scholars would go abroad, studying different cultures, and bringing their mysticism and magnificence back to the USA.

Europe was composed entirely of British whore-states. Most of the rest of the world was under direct British control. Japan was also pro-British, as well as several other states. An early theater of inter-bloc fighting was the Russian attempt to reclaim their far east. This would eventually lead Russia to the American camp.

In the 1960s, the Transcaucasian Confederation broke into civil war. The Azeris declared an independent republic and began combating the Christian monarchy. Russian and Persian troops, as well as some American commanders, began pouring in to aid them - all funded by the USA. The rebellion eventually lost momentum, as Azeri rights were fulfilled and Transcaucasia became a good country to them.

In the 1980s, the British empire was forced to launch a direct invasion of Saudi Arabia (it goed Saudi ITTL, too) due to an oil crisis. The British are humiliatingly defeated.

And so, in the late 1980s, colonies are given more and more power and autonomy. South Africa becomes the first Dominion to declare independence, and when the Brits do nothing - Canada follows.
In the first free elections of the Dominion of Great Egypt and the Sudan, an anti-imperialist pro-American party rises to power. They depose the puppet-king and nationalize the canal. The British panic and send troops to retake Great Egypt and the Sudan, along with neighboring Tunisia and Sahariya. Tens of thousands of British troops perish in the following chaos, as well as hundreds of thousands of the local population.

In 1994, riots in British cities. The government responds by sending troops in. The troops refuse to fight civilian population. Leftist generals, supported by the monarchy, storm the parliament and take-over the country in a coup de'tat. The local governing authorities in all remaining British possesions soon declare independence. American troops land in Ireland.
The British Empire is finished.

Da End.

?
 
Is the Atomic League TL on the website? It has a "Commonwealth" (to put it very loosely) Cold War against the US which the US loses. The Cold War features not only a Space Race, but also proxy wars.
 
how about... the Brits come out poorly in WW2, losing early on, and being driven from all power on the Continent, but keeping their empire. During the whole thing, the USA stayed firmly in the isolationist camp, refusing to send any bit of aid to the allies. So, the Brits are naturally surly about this....

only problem is, Canada is right next door, so how much can the Brits afford to confront the US?
 
Wow, ninebucks, I liked your one. Rather unusual POD, but generally plausible. I did have just one objection, though:
By 1958, the USA also developes nuclear weapons, and a delicate Balance of Terror begins to assert itself. Heavy fortifications are established along the borders of France, Scandanavia and Italy. These nations are officially subserviant to Washington, but retain a significant degree of autonomy and political freedom. However, social freedoms and welfare systems are much less established that in TTL, as such things are considered Whigish and anti-American.

But, you described the new Whigs this way:

...By this time, a party calling themselves the New Whigs have acheived political monopoly within Britain, their ideology is secular, modernist and borderline-totalitarian in their intolerance of difference and opposition.

OK, I can see the US having an objection to economic interference in people's lives because of their opposition to the New Whigs. But why would they have less of a like of social freedoms for the same reason? If they're consciously trying to be the opposites of the New Whigs in this ATL, they should be free marketeers and social liberals/libertarians (Europe/US usage), rather than generally free market and social conservative as in OTL Cold War.

Other than that, an excellent scenario. As DAv asks, did you think that up there and then, or had you sketched it out some time previously?
 
how about... the Brits come out poorly in WW2, losing early on, and being driven from all power on the Continent, but keeping their empire. During the whole thing, the USA stayed firmly in the isolationist camp, refusing to send any bit of aid to the allies. So, the Brits are naturally surly about this....

only problem is, Canada is right next door, so how much can the Brits afford to confront the US?

Let's develop that scenario a little. If the British Empire is knocked out of WWII early on, and the Americans don't join in either, then who wins it? Either Nazi Germany or the USSR has mastery of Europe. Or, more unlikely, they fight each other to a draw. Unless the third option happens, we have the whole of Europe under the heel of a totalitarian power. Even so, without a democratic outside influence, Europe is divided between totalitarian powers. Even if there are fairly widespread resistance movements, or reformist tendencies, I doubt they would have much effect for a couple of decades after WWII at best.

Why would Britain and the US come to blows, or even go into a Cold War with each other, in such a situation? Only the other power would benefit. I know that OTL decisions often don't make objective sense, but still...

Perhaps more likely is a triangular confrontation, with both Britain and the US being strongly opposed to, even if not at war with, Nazi Europe / super-USSR (whichever it is), and the US and Britain, while not necessarily being friends, at least not explicitly being rivals. "Benevolent neutrality", as it were, but nowhere near the "special relationship". After all, Britain and the US would be much closer together - temperamentally, culturally, ideologically, on all sorts of levels - than either of them would be with the Nazis or Soviets. Even if there are things they don't agree on, they still agree on fundamentals, such as democracy and the rule of law.
 
Let's outline the scenario first

We need an ideological difference which makes people's emotions flare up - similar to communism vs. capitalism. Monarchy vs. republicanism won't be sufficient. Slight differences in economy (free market vs. mercantilism) also doesn't really flare up moods. Religion might be more suitable - but IOTL both countries are pretty indifferent in that regard. Colonialism might be a good start - especially if somehow the other powers fall out of the race.

How about a slightly different WWI: Germany decides not to attack Belgium, and to wait for a French attack in the west instead of starting a war on 2 sides. Otherwise the war is pretty similar - Austria-Hungaria is weakend by Russian advances, Russia is weakend by German advances. But as Germany can use more troops in the east, Russia's losses are much higher. Germany quickly reaches Moscow and St. Petersburg.

At that time, British balance of power politics kicks in - Russia is given generous help against Germany. France helps, too. Germany, still in a good position (far better than WWI IOTL after a year of war), decides to take on France for falling in their back. With France preparing for a whole year and learning German strategies, not having serious losses of equipment, and so on, it is able to stand up against Germany, similar to OTL WWI. Britain doesn't even need to send their troops. Italy joins in the second year of the war, about a year later than IOTL, and against Austria-Hungaria. It's a similar back-and forth as IOTL - except that Austria-Hungaria had a whole year more to build up forces, to improve strategies, to utilise Serb ressources, and so on.

The war bleeds Europe and, similar to OTL, it looses in economic importance - except that Britain stays strong. To pay for war expenses, France and Italy give up some of their colonies to Great Britain and the US. German colonies mostly fall to France (some to Japan, as IOTL), and from there to the two Anglosaxon countries.

With the war slowly turning against the CP, the US decides to also do some balance of power politics - but on opposite sides from Britain and France. Continental Europe becomes proxy war country - the goal is to make Britain spend more than it can on the war, to make the Empire (covering more than 30% of the world at that time) crumble. The US also manages to get China on it's side - thus China, with American weapons and technology, fights against Japan, Russia, and Indochina, liberating Korea, Mongolia, and Indochina while loosing in manpower and economic strength similar to OTL, but for different reasons.

The US creates an early hegemonial system which IOTL only came into existence after WWII. Britain answers by strengthening the Commonwealth - allowing more industrialisation in the colonies, more participation, more movement of people between the colonies and migration towards and away from Britain.

When the war is over, continental Europe including Russia is pretty much neutralised and without colonies. The British Empire is larger than ever. America controls Latin America and eastern Asia, while Britain controls western Asia, eastern Africa, and Canada. The rest of Africa is pretty divided between the two power and remnants of old colonial powers.

Instead of Japan, China develops into the dominant eastern Asian power. The American Hegemony is more successful economically than Britain, which spurs Britain into moving millions of Indians, Egyptians, and other people into less densely populated places like Canada, Australia, and parts of Africa - to improve defensive capabilities, to exchange talents, and to improve the industrial base. That leads to a much more stable Commonwealth. It even gets a Commonwealth parliament, based in London.

Russia becomes communist as IOTL, but thanks to a much stronger British Empire and a very strong US, it's regarded more as a folly than as a menace. Unlike OTL, communism is never able to spread.

Fascism takes hold of Italy, Germany, and a few other countries similar to OTL, but as fascist countries never grow strong enough to fight any serious wars, the conflicts turn into a balcanisation of continental Europe instead of a threat to Britain. That keeps any competition for the two great powers from happening.

The Commonwealth turns into an EU like expanding system, and is able to win over more and more countries. In the 1970s, a very strong China decides to join the Commonwealth. That seals the fate for the American Hegemony and starts a Pax Britannica.
 
Why not develop an timeline with a POD at the end or after WWII, for example:

1) The UK and US get into a conflict because the USA didn't go to Berlin;

2) The Suez crisis of 1956 divides the UK (or even Europe) and USA;

3) The letter of De Gaulle to Eisenhower and MacMillan about the NATO in 1958 is the end of NATO which easily could be the start of a cold war between Europe and the USA;

4) The UK didn’t agree the support the USA gave to Israel at the Yom Kippur War of 1973;

5) The UK and USA getting into a cold war after the rejection of Reagan to help the UK in the Falklands war of 1982.
 
Why not develop an timeline with a POD at the end or after WWII, for example:

1) The UK and US get into a conflict because the USA didn't go to Berlin;

2) The Suez crisis of 1956 divides the UK (or even Europe) and USA;

3) The letter of De Gaulle to Eisenhower and MacMillan about the NATO in 1958 is the end of NATO which easily could be the start of a cold war between Europe and the USA;

4) The UK didn’t agree the support the USA gave to Israel at the Yom Kippur War of 1973;

5) The UK and USA getting into a cold war after the rejection of Reagan to help the UK in the Falklands war of 1982.

I was largely thinking along the lines of two equal powers facing off against each other. After WWII is too late for that scenario.
 
I was largely thinking along the lines of two equal powers facing off against each other. After WWII is too late for that scenario.

For Balanced power between the UK and the USA, the end of WW1 is a likely POD. Because the treaty of Versailles is often an nice starting point. Before 1914 the UK is maybe too strong and after 1920 the USA became a too powerful nation to call it balanced.
 
WI Britain is taken over by radical monarchists who vow to extend the king/queen's rule over all 'the former colonies'.....


sorry, I'll let myself out....
 
For Balanced power between the UK and the USA, the end of WW1 is a likely POD. Because the treaty of Versailles is often an nice starting point. Before 1914 the UK is maybe too strong and after 1920 the USA became a too powerful nation to call it balanced.

The UK was severly weakened by WW1 however so a POD could very well be Britain not getting involved in the War at all.
 
Really there has to be very large American antagonism to the British for there to be a cold war. In the later part of the 1800 Britain finally began courting the USA to soothe tensions for it found itself more or less isolated from Europe. So if Britain acutally finds allies in Europe earlier (less Splendid Isolation) than maybe it would feel no need to soothe tensions with the USA and in fact responds more severaly to American attempts to annoy the British. However it is quite diffcult, as already stated, to have a Cold War with two powers that are really quite similar. The Cold War in OTL was a battle between two different economic ideals. Maybe you could have instead of Communism vs Captialism you could have Keynes vs Hayek. John Maynard Keynes (The Gerneral Theory) taught that more goverment control in the Commanding Heights of the economy would create the country to prosper while Hayek (The Road to Serfdom) taught that markets needed less goverment control. So a cold war could be between these two competing ideas of Captialism. Since Keyens was British it only seems natural that Britain should be under the Keyens system. This would mean the Hayek would have to dominate the USA. Of course this would entail the collapse of the British Empire for Keyens system had one fatal flaw in it. It thought that wage and price control would be able to stop inflation from going out of hand while Hayeks theory believed that only fiscal policy would be able to stop inflation which turned out to be correct. In the 1970's (OTL) both Britain and USA used fiscal policy under Thatcher and Reagan to stop inflation. Thus in this scenerio the USA would "win" the cold war. But of course the POD is diffcult. Maybe closer German-British ties would help this along (maybe Prince Fredrick assuming the throne or the Kaiser Whilem being less sensetive to what he considered social insults). The British could be impressed with the Prussian system and try to emulate and Keynes helped direct that economic system. The USA however saw this as Monarchary and Absolute control by the state and follow Hayek and the Austrian school of economics. Thus a cold war type situation. A Vietnam could be supplied by Russia. A failed communist revolution occurs and the country is torn into chaos (definetly later than OTL maybe late 50's for the British are able to keep Russia under control of the Tsar). The USA begins to arm Hayek supporters and Britain begins to arm Keynes idealists. The USA begans to land troops in Siberia and a quagmire occurs for the USA soldiers are not used to winter warfare (instead of Jungle as in OTL). Thus after a long and bitter fight, USA withdraws and Keynes doctrine is put into effect in Russia. As for an Afganistan verison maybe the Muslim world would be able to supply this. OPEC (or something close to it) is quite bitter for British control over Palestein and Egypt (somehow retains its control) and decide on an Oil Embargo. Already inflation and high enemployment (stagflation in OTL) is hurting the Empire. So the British decide to invade lets say Saudi Arabia. The Americans begin shipping arms to Saudi rebels and the British are defeated and have to withdraw. In the end like I already stated the British economy is collapsing do to stagflation. Thus colonies begin to break away and the British goverment is forced to introduce Hayek ideals (Margret Thatcher could be OTL Mikhail Gorbachev) and the Cold War is over with the USA being the sole superpower.
 
OK, WWI goes into 1919 with Germany getting partitioned into Southern Germany, Western Germany, and Eastern Germany/Prussia. Russia gets hammered in a brutal civil war that gets supplied by various foreign powers as Japan takes much of eastern Siberia in the process. The only two powers left in the presence of a damaged France are the UK and US. France, Argentina, and Japan gravitate towards London as Italy, Brazil, and much of Russia gravitate towards the US. They proceed to fight a proxy war, often using Germans and Russians as pawns and technology demonstrators for their own weaponry. Meanwhile, as the Depression hits, American politicians begin eyeing Canadian resources (and money that it makes during Prohibition) while stirring up revolutionary sentiment in its colonies...
 
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