Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have one of the warlords of China during the period 1916-1928 successfully establish a new ruling imperial dynasty that has effective control over most of historical China at the very least. You may use any warlord and any POD you desire, just keep it plausible. The dynasty must remain stable for at least three generations of rulers; lasting to the present day is optimal but not required.
AH Challenge: Chinese Imperial Restoration
- Thread starter AmericanCataphract
- Start date
Constantinople
Banned
I think there is a rather long rosy-tinted timeline about that very same concept floating around here somewhere.
I had just learned about him the other day. That was the inspiration for this thread. The only thing is, I don't think he had any sons. Wiki mentions a daughter whom he tried to marry to Pu Yi, but it doesn't seem likely that she could actually take the throne in her father's place.
I had just learned about him the other day. That was the inspiration for this thread. The only thing is, I don't think he had any sons. Wiki mentions a daughter whom he tried to marry to Pu Yi, but it doesn't seem likely that she could actually take the throne in her father's place.
According to wikipedia he had three sons
Well, that just goes to show how good of a researcher I am.
Question is, which one would actually be likely to succeed him? Maybe if war breaks out on Shikai's death, but Keliang quickly puts the rebel warlords down and claims the throne?
Hendryk
Banned
The POD in "Superpower Empire" is in 1912, so it doesn't meet the challenge's requirement. In fact, the reason I chose that date in the first place, was because those attempts at imperial restoration that took place later on in OTL ended in failure. I consider that 1912 was the very latest date when such a restoration could be successfully carried out, at least in order for things to turn out as well as they do in my TL. One reason for that, after 1913 and Yuan's replacement of civilian provincial governors by his cronies from the Beiyang Army, descent into warlordism was practically inevitable; another was that, in spite of Yuan's shenanigans, the politically involved Chinese elites grew to consider the Republic the most appropriate type of regime for China, and going against that consensus would have taken uncommon skill and charisma.
In OTL, apart from Yuan Shikai's unsuccessful bid of emperorhood, there was also an attempt by warlord Zhang Xun in 1917 to restore the Qing dynasty.
Oh, Yuan had a plentiful descendence thanks to his many wives and concubines. His eldest son and prospective successor, Yuan Keding, was born in 1878. Incidentally, one of his grandchildren is an American geologist.I had just learned about him the other day. That was the inspiration for this thread. The only thing is, I don't think he had any sons. Wiki mentions a daughter whom he tried to marry to Pu Yi, but it doesn't seem likely that she could actually take the throne in her father's place.
Hendryk
Banned
If you're into that period in Chinese history, you may be interested in a TV series called "Towards the Republic", which relates political events in China from 1890 to 1917. See this thread for further details.Well, that just goes to show how good of a researcher I am.
Incognito
Banned
I’m resurrecting this thread because I have the exact same question. Would it benefit any of the western powers to back either Yuan Shih-k'ai or Zhang Xun in their monarchy-related ambitions? Perhaps as part of some sort of proxy war with Japan or Russia in world War 1?
P.S.: please move this thread to After 1900 Forum
P.S.: please move this thread to After 1900 Forum
Even if they both contained enough charisma and skill to suppress potential warlords, I don't see anything a pliant monarchy will provide that a pliant republic won't. As Hendryk said, by then the institution of the monarchy had been discredited, and there appears to be no precedent in Chinese history where an overthrown and disgraced dynasty is restored years later.
Incognito
Banned
Quiet simple really: you support the leader who benefits your interests in the region. If the leader declares himself emperor (Yuan Shih-k'ai) or wants to prop up a puppet emperor and be the power behind the throne (Zhang Xun, though I have no idea what his long-term goals for Emperor Puyi were) than you support the leader’s pliant monarchy.
Hmm… what about restoring/retaining/setting up a Chinese monarch in limited geographic region rather than retaining control over all of china? Like what Japanese did with Emperor Puyi and the Manchukuo Empire?
Would you rather I start a new thread asking the exact same questions? What would be the point of that?
Perhaps, but by that time the institution of the monarchy was discredited. Therefore any puppet warlord who wishes to at least retain power must profess to be the legitimate leader of the KMT and the Republic of China.
Manchukuo had so little local support that the largest source of weapons for the anti-Japanese resistance in the region was the Manchukuo armed forces themselves. Entire divisions of the Manchukuo Army deserted on the battlefield before even firing a shot. In fact Puyi himself resented being merely the Emperor of Manchukuo rather than the Restored Qing Dynasty. Any Chinese leader who does not at least profess to be the legitimate leader of all of China and who at doesn't at least do things for show will not be viewed as legitimate, period.
Incognito
Banned
What about Zhang Xun? Could he have successfully restored a puppet monarchy if the warlords who turned against him were stopped?
Still, it existed. It was nothing more than a Japanese puppet regime but had it been set up earlier and Japanese Empire avoided losing WW2 the situation could have met the original OP.
Hmm…any chance of everyone’s favorite “Mad Baron”, Roman von Ungern-Sternberg, being more successful in Mongolia and eventually expanding south to set up a puppet regime in Manchuria?
How could the warlords be "stopped"? Zhang Xun would need incredible amount of charisma to justify restoring a disgraced institution. Either that or Alien Space Bats make the warlords lay down their arms and sing Kumbaya together.
Oh, that would have been bloody. Around fifty million Chinese would be killed in a guerrilla war spanning a continent-sized landmass, and many millions of young Japanese would get killed, threatening the stability of the Japanese regime itself. Manchukuo only controlled a small fraction of China at its height, and even if somehow a puppet Imperial China were to unite all of China, there would eventually have been a Sino-Japan split similar to the Sino-Soviet split of OTL.
I think it would have even less legitimacy than the OTL puppet regime of Manchukuo.
Incognito
Banned
Can Zhang Xun push rival warlords out of Beijing & retain control in the city & surrounding area (enough land to be more-or-less self sustained)?
What if the Japanese decide that Empire of Manchukuo is enough (at least for the time being)?
Any other ideas then? What powers could benefit from having China on their side during WW1 and the years that came immediately after?
P.S.: below is a quote from wiki
Anyone have more info on this supposed German support for Zhang Xun? Wiki does not provide references or links to other articles in this case.