AH Challenge: Biggest Spanish Empire 1900

[B_Munro]

With a POD after Felipe II's death in 1598 (so no Armada Succeeds, and the Dutch are probably gone) create the largest possible Spanish Empire in 1900. It need be no more tightly unified than the British empire shortly before WWII, so the American Dominions or whatever can be pretty much self-governing, but it still should be considered as a unified entity, the way people thought of the British Empire in, say, 1938, and should still be considered a Great Power, although it certainly need not be Top Dog. The Capital can be moved from Spain, but should be located somewhere where Spanish (or maybe Portuguese) is the dominant language, so no Spanish Empire-as-the-subsidiary-of-a-German-or-French Empire, please.

Bonus points if you have it still a great power in 2015.

This is of course tricky: it's probably too late to get some sort of Habsburg-Dominated-in-the-Long-Run Europe at this point, and things like Nugax's clerical-fascist American-centered hyperpower, badass as they are, are probably well out on the trailing tail of the curve of probability.

It's tricky, I admit. Spain never really treated it's colonials as if they didn't have cooties, even if they were of "pure blood", and it's hard to see how they can carry out a successful transition to enough self government to satisfy local elites while at the same time modernizing enough to keep the lower classes from boiling over. Possibly one could go another way entirely and have Spain lose most of the Americas, but hold onto Portugal, consolidate Italy under its rule, and build a Britain-like "second empire" in Africa and Asia.

To keep a TL from wandering off into odd places, some may want to go with a "minimal changes" TL, to which I have no objections if you don't have Richard Nixon as the Ambassador from the United States of Columbia to the court of Spain. And if you want a later divergence, more power to you, although I think things are going to get increasingly tricky as you follow OTL's trajectory through the second half of the 17th and the 18th centuries.

Random brain-farts: some sort of great religious revival acting as a cement to help create a Catholic-Spanish American identity? Some sort of alt-war of the Spanish succession leaves the Habsburgs in Spain, but gives some of their American empire to the French, giving the Spanish a smaller but less cumbersome and more easily reorganized entity? Habsburgs move to New Spain, ala Look to the West? The much ballyhooed-in-AH-but-probably-never-had-a-chance plan to spin off parts of Latin America as subordinate monarchies actually gets the support it needs? The Jesuits aren't banned and really do end up secretly running the Spanish Empire?

thoughts?
Bruce

 

[martin76]

The Spanish Empire was the largest in the world in terms of land of which possession was taken.




From Chesapeake to Tierra del Fuego, passing through North Carolina, Georgia, Tenneessee, Brazil, Alaska, New Guinea or Borneo ... but never had population to colonize these lands (or industries that make "appeteizing"). The Spaniards were in Korea, Japan, Singapore, Siam, Taiwan, Micronesia, Melanesia, Polynesia etc. So the Spanish Empire had too much land to colonize, but in many of that lands, the Spanish presence was nonexistent (a document of possession and nothing more, for example in North Borneo were the Spanish rights survived until 1885: Protocolo de Madrid ).
For the Spanish Empire had populated all lands conquered needed to have three times more inhabitants and a powerful industry and a lot of peace .. none of that produlo: 8 million, barely industry and continuous wars against Islam, Turks Protestants and malevolent France ...
Tell me how Spain (7 millions habitant in 1500, 12 millions in 1808) could settle Louisiana, Virginia, Carolinas, Brazil, Borneo, Tunis, Argel, Tripoli, Peru, Chili, Salomon, New Guinea, Cuba, Philippines, Taiwan, Cambodja, Micronesia or Polynesia?
I think It was impossible: Spain would have needed 25 millions habitants as France had... and however France never (not even in 1870 - 1960) settled an area as extense as the Spanish Empire had. Britain lacked of wars between 1815 to 1914 (save Greece and Crimea), France lacked of wars between 1871 to 1914...Spain not even had a year without war between 1492 to 1815...
So, Spain needed for continious being a great Empire in 1900:
. More Population
. More industries capacities
. More Peace.

 

[Faeelin]

It's tricky, I admit. Spain never really treated it's colonials as if they didn't have cooties, even if they were of "pure blood", and it's hard to see how they can carry out a successful transition to enough self government to satisfy local elites while at the same time modernizing enough to keep the lower classes from boiling over.

To be fair, Spain's decision to exclude the creoles from positions of power was more of a Bourbon reform than one that was traditional. Under the Habsburgs, you saw Creoles achieve key positions in the colonial government; this was reversed under the Bourbons. (This also parallels the the practice under George III to replace colonial governors in the Americas with British ones).

Also, the Spanish Empire didn't collapse until after Spain was occupied by Napoleon. What would have happened in the Americas absent Napoleon is a question I have never seen explored.

 

[martin76]

To be fair, Spain's decision to exclude the creoles from positions of power was more of a Bourbon reform than one that was traditional. Under the Habsburgs, you saw Creoles achieve key positions in the colonial government; this was reversed under the Bourbons. (This also parallels the the practice under George III to replace colonial governors in the Americas with British ones).

Also, the Spanish Empire didn't collapse until after Spain was occupied by Napoleon. What would have happened in the Americas absent Napoleon is a question I have never seen explored.

Exactly. in the Spanish Empire (as in the Austrian) no matter the origin, but loyalty. There were spanish general from Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Germany, Netherland, Austria, Peru, Mexico, Philippines etc etc... in fact, there was a Spanish Primer Minister from Ireland (There weren´t in Britain and however yes in Spain)..
And yes, the Spanish Empire collapsed with the Napoleon´s invasion and the total war. without the invasion, no one knows what would have happened .. who knows? Mabye the Spanish empire reaches full the XX Century...

 

[Troyer IV]

things like Nugax's clerical-fascist American-centered hyperpower, badass as they are, are probably well out on the trailing tail of the curve of probability.

Bruce

What's this now?

 

[B_Munro]

What's this now?

 

[TFSmith121]

1900? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is

With a POD after Felipe II's death in 1598 (so no Armada Succeeds, and the Dutch are probably gone) create the largest possible Spanish Empire in 1900. It need be no more tightly unified than the British empire shortly before WWII, so the American Dominions or whatever can be pretty much self-governing, but it still should be considered as a unified entity, the way people thought of the British Empire in, say, 1938, and should still be considered a Great Power, although it certainly need not be Top Dog. The Capital can be moved from Spain, but should be located somewhere where Spanish (or maybe Portuguese) is the dominant language, so no Spanish Empire-as-the-subsidiary-of-a-German-or-French Empire, please.

Bonus points if you have it still a great power in 2015.

This is of course tricky: it's probably too late to get some sort of Habsburg-Dominated-in-the-Long-Run Europe at this point, and things like Nugax's clerical-fascist American-centered hyperpower, badass as they are, are probably well out on the trailing tail of the curve of probability.

It's tricky, I admit. Spain never really treated it's colonials as if they didn't have cooties, even if they were of "pure blood", and it's hard to see how they can carry out a successful transition to enough self government to satisfy local elites while at the same time modernizing enough to keep the lower classes from boiling over. Possibly one could go another way entirely and have Spain lose most of the Americas, but hold onto Portugal, consolidate Italy under its rule, and build a Britain-like "second empire" in Africa and Asia.

To keep a TL from wandering off into odd places, some may want to go with a "minimal changes" TL, to which I have no objections if you don't have Richard Nixon as the Ambassador from the United States of Columbia to the court of Spain. And if you want a later divergence, more power to you, although I think things are going to get increasingly tricky as you follow OTL's trajectory through the second half of the 17th and the 18th centuries.

Random brain-farts: some sort of great religious revival acting as a cement to help create a Catholic-Spanish American identity? Some sort of alt-war of the Spanish succession leaves the Habsburgs in Spain, but gives some of their American empire to the French, giving the Spanish a smaller but less cumbersome and more easily reorganized entity? Habsburgs move to New Spain, ala Look to the West? The much ballyhooed-in-AH-but-probably-never-had-a-chance plan to spin off parts of Latin America as subordinate monarchies actually gets the support it needs? The Jesuits aren't banned and really do end up secretly running the Spanish Empire?

thoughts?
Bruce

1600 to 1900 - well, the first thing that comes to mind (especially in terms of keeping close to historical reality) is that the Spanish American empire in fact gains independence as a result of the Napoleonic wars, and Spain proper - seeing the examples of the US and Haiti - gives up trying to retain them by 1815...

So, by 1820 or so, the Spanish Empire is reduced to various enclaves in Africa and the Mediterrean, the Atlantic islands, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillippines and Micronesia. This saves Spain a lot of blood and treasure, which - given some better results in terms of the internal political conflicts in Spain in the Nineteenth Century (at least in terms of stability, if not individuals), which puts Spain in a "reasonable" position to compete during the scramble for Africa. (Cripes, if Italy can find the funds to do so in the 1880s and afterwards, presumably a Spain that didn't spend most of the 1820s in a forlorn effort at reconquest could do so as well - especially if they don't expend resources in the Dominican Republic and the Chincha Islands conflicts in the 1860s, as well.

Actual alliances or at least understandings with France and Britain would not hurt, either, of course...

Given how much of northwest and west Africa was "unclaimed" as late as 1880, presumably Spain could have carved out significant portions of what France and the UK did historically, in both those regions.

Paradoxically, given an "imperialist" policy in the 1880s, Madrid may be more willing to cut some deals with the Cubans and Filipinos (at least those who are more or less "Spanish") in terms of local autonomy in return for troops and treasure to support the African campaign; if this is enough to make Marti and Rizal and their compatriots "loyal to the crown" in the sense of (say) Canadians and Australians were in the same era, the end result is that by 1900 Spain retains what they had in 1820 and adds the equivalent of most of the Maghreb west of French Algeria and some (at least) of what historically was added to the British and French empires in West Africa and the sub-saharan parts of Central Africa.

How about that?

The Twentieth Century with an enlarged Spanish Empire would be interesting.

Best,

 

[Kingpoleon]

Napoleon became an orphan at the age of 17 and was adopted by a Spanish nobleman. He takes night classes in Spanish during his time at the school. Within six months, he speaks Spanish fluently and moves to Spain with his father. Rousseau, hearing of the young writer, moves to Spain as well and continues publishing his manuscripts. At the age of 19, Napoleon enters into the Spanish military as a captain, a position bought by his adopted father.

When Napoleon is 20, Rousseau's manuscripts inspire revolution. Many of Napoleon's fellow majors depart and he is appointed a Lieutenant Colonel. He leads the artillery brigades in the Battle of the Pyrenees. He manages to capture a rebel fortress there due to his bombardments and becomes a hero at home. He is appointed Brigadier General.

Napoleon is sent to the Balearics, where some 800 rebels have seized control as The Balearic Council. They formed a militia of 4,000 which patrolled the island, killing the nobles. The dead nobles include Napoleon's adopted father, his wife, and children.

When Napoleon landed, he found his adopted brother attempting a coup of the island. He gathered a crowd of nobles and their supporters, numbering 400 as the Army of Balearic. They march with Napoleon's Army of the Pyrenees which numbers 3,000.

In a hotly contested battle, the two sides meet. Napoleon and his brother, Carlos III Vesquiz, lead a cavalry charge onto the enemy's camp. Protected only by a few dozen sentries, the tents are all soon burning and the general captured. Napoleon takes the supplies and prisoners to the main camp while his half brother patrols the camp and makes sure the tents burn.

When Napoleon returns, his brother is dead but the tents are burning. He spurs the cavalry onto the enemy flank. Napoleon himself kills nineteen men before barely escaping a surrounding of himself, and inevitably, his death. He leads his Guardia back and charges, again and again, until the Spanish have all either surrendered or are dead.

Napoleon returns as a hero and becomes Major General of the Spanish Ejército(Army). When asked whether noble or not on his official promotion, he replied, "Not." This was because he feared the revolution. He became El Presidente by noble election in 1798. The Senado of 1799 offered him the crown and Emperorship, which he accepted. Portugal, fearing liberalism, declared war with France. Napoleon invaded Portugal while his allies protected him in the Pyrenees. Within eight days, Lisbon had been reached. José Cortez, meanwhile, defended him in the north with the Militia of Catalonia and the Pyrenees.

In the Treaty of Olivenza, Olivenza and all of Portugal north of the Mandego was annexed by Spain. Napoleon's brother, Joseph, became King of Portugal as José II. They both led the reinforcements to the Pyrenees, where they defeated the French. From this, followed by the Battle of Marseilles, a Spanish victory, Spain had a clear advantage.

Spain seized Corsica from the French in the Battle of Corsica, a three-way battle between Corsican guerrilla forces, Pro-French militia groups numbering 18,000 with the French Armée of Corsica numbering 6,000, and Napoleon's Army of the Balearics, numbering 48,000. Napoleon executed the French General and his aide-de-camp besides one Bernadotte who defected. The General was captured during a surprise cavalry raid.

The French army surrendered with Bernadotte along with 16,000 militiamen who were pardoned. The French Armée became prisoners. Napoleon easily crushed the Corsican forces and began negotiating with Paris. Paris agreed to surrender Corsica and French Catalonia at the Treaty of Versailles in 1804. The French prisoners, surprisingly well treated, were then handed over alongside the now Spanish spy Bernadotte.

Napoleon's son, Napoleoné became King on his father's death on March 18, 1836. He had been Co-King since his eighteenth birthday in 1829. He married his second cousin, Hermine, on his seventeenth birthday. She bore him a child, Napoleon III, in 1829. On January 9, 1830, she bore him Maria. Then, on November 18, also 1830, she had Louis. By 1836, the two had seven children, Napoleon, Marie, Louis, Josephine, Edward, Joseph, and Charles. He died on January 18, 1848. His son became King and would rule for seventy years. During this time, he purchased Gibraltar and won the French part of Basqueland. The Napoleon line ended when his son, Louis, became King for twenty-two years from 1928 to 1940. His son, Joseph, would rule from 1940 to 2010, when his own eighteen-year old son, his only child, poisoned him and became King of Iberia due to his marriage to Queen Anne of Portugal. The future looks bright for the Spanish Empire, which currently encompasses Panama, South America, Morocco, the Philippines, and all of the Caribbean besides a few British possessions.

 

[Xenophonte]

The real challenge will be, given the Spanish history that Spain had an Empire in 1900 ...

Anyway the death of Philip, would not affect their policies, who followed the strategic axes of the Spanish Policy at the time:
the protection and imposition of Catholicity where this was challenged, by the Reformation' in the Spaniards domains, protection of
vital road between Italy and its possessions in the Spanish low Countries.

Spain must to fight with England because threatens the Atlantic interests (the route that came American resources) of Spain
and its financing of Protestant rebels, maintain supremacy in the western Mediterranean and stopping the Ottoman advance in the Mediterranean.


These, plus the Alliance Family with H.R.E were the political interests Spaniards in Europe, which would be continued by any new or Regent Spanish monarch.



The absence of a Monarch would be used by the clergy and the aristocracy, blood or not, to increase its powers at the expense of the crown,
speeding up the future financial collapse of the Spanish State.


The Pod necessary in this period, Philip would not inherit the Netherlands, given perhaps the other branch of the Habsburgs. Other Inherited to the Royal bastard Carlos V ... Don John of Austria (the victor of Lepanto), instead of Philip.



Being avoided the endless Spain bloodletting that led to the rebellion and the subsequent attempt to suppress that added to the succession of collaterals and subsequent wars,

caused by the conflict that originated in rapid expansion of the Reformation in the northern provinces and autonomous feeling be exacerbated by the Politics of a foreign monarch (Felipe) to its traditions and history.

After the end of this series of wars no longer existed the Spanish Hegemony indispensable to protect their colonial rule base, this pod would make a Spain, focus on the

Mediterranean and America, deploying troops to north of the Alps only at the express request of the Habsburgs German or maybe as a participant, an ally of Catholic side,

reaching an eventual happen religious civil war in France.

Keeping to its use in areas vital to the permanent interests of the nation and not just Spanish dynastic, avoiding bleeding of material and human resources to try to regain a

region so remote, geographic and culturally from the Mediterranean Core of the Spaniards Domains.


Postscript
But if what is being sought is a survivor Spanish Empire after 1900 could check this link :


http://www.militar.org.ua/foro/ucronia-espana-vs-ee-uu-duelo-de-aguilas-t36355.html


But it is recommended caution about the risks inherent in a possible and plausible enough (even for the most demanding members of the Board) to natural or cultural Anglophiles devoted creators of the most extreme and implausible Wanks (to the level ASB, of course). .., in case any follow the link.

 

[B_Munro]

And yes, the Spanish Empire collapsed with the Napoleon´s invasion and the total war. without the invasion, no one knows what would have happened .. who knows? Mabye the Spanish empire reaches full the XX Century...

Hmm - things shifted fairly soon from "we don't recognize French puppets and rump Spanish Juntas" to "we don't recognize the rightful rule of _any_ Spanish government": violent resistance movements got going against "legitimist" regimes in those countries which didn't declare independence at first. Strikes me there was a pretty strong "independence lobby" from almost the start, which the previous American and French revolutions had galvanized: I suspect Spain would still have run into serious trouble well before 1900, absent a French invasion.

 

[martin76]

Hmm - things shifted fairly soon from "we don't recognize French puppets and rump Spanish Juntas" to "we don't recognize the rightful rule of _any_ Spanish government": violent resistance movements got going against "legitimist" regimes in those countries which didn't declare independence at first. Strikes me there was a pretty strong "independence lobby" from almost the start, which the previous American and French revolutions had galvanized: I suspect Spain would still have run into serious trouble well before 1900, absent a French invasion.

Interesting but I don´t think so. Between 1492 to 1810 there was no serious attempt to gain independence from Spain (Tupac Amaru, 1780 is in name of the King of Spain). In 1810, the rebellion in Buenos Aires is on behalf of Ferdinand VII and against Napoleon´s purppet..
No war against Napoleon means Real Armada would be the second fleet in the world.. beside, Indians, Mestizos, blacks were with the King (el Taita)...I do not deny conspiracy against King by fews creaoles (Criollos) Creole, but no popular support and having to face the regular Spanish army (not destroyed by the collapse of the state happened in 1808). The creole conspirancies would have been suffocated.
Yes, I imagine the Spanish Empire in 1880 as in 1780, Great, Old and Quiet ... Spain had shown that knew defend his empire of any European power (Britain, France, Netherland ...) but the only real threat were the USA... It would have been priority to destroy the US: First, through an alliance with Britain in 1776 - 1783, means US unborn!.
In case It would have been impossible the alliance with Britain... in 1861, The Spanish Empire, Strong, from Louissiana and Florida would have allied with CSA... USA still exist as a set of nice little northern states ... never have developed imperialism nor had crossed the Mississippi, border of the Spanish Dominions.
I continuous viewing a unique problem: the small population of Spain and the lack of industry. But Spain (like Austria) was open to Catholics worldwide countries. Perhaps It had developed a French, Irish, Bavarian, Polish, Austrian, Italian, belgian emigration to the Catholick King´s Dominions. But I doubt...
On Africa, the Spaniards showed only interest in the war against Islam (Testament of Isabella the Catholic Queen) ... Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya ... in all these places the Spaniards conquered a number of cities: Larache, Melilla, Algiers, Oran, Constantine, Tunis, Tripoli etc etc. Perhaps they had spread far but I think that the Spaniards lacked of interest in Africa (according to Tordesillas, Portuguese influence area). Guinea and Fernando Poo were the only real Spanish Dominion in Black Africa, although during the Union with Portugal, the Spanish King had a lot of dominions in Africa. (That's the reason why you can still see the coat of arms of Spain in the forts of Mombassa or Ormutz).