Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Have the small little emirates in North Africa modernize and keep up the technological pace with Europe.
AH Challenge: Africa Dominates
- Thread starter Room 101
- Start date
You're only option there is really East Africa, then, since all the West African trade routes simply went up through the Sahara to Oran, Constantine, Tunis, and that lot, and taking a merchant ship there from Western Africa would've meant having to deal with some cruddy currents and Spaniards at Gibraltar.
I say take the Spaniards and Portuguese out of the question by having a successful Almohad dynasty that is able to secure longterm domination or at least partial domination of Iberia. Almohads were based in Morocco so they would technically be an African power.
They would have good reason to make sure they have a powerful navy to fend off christians. They would be fully aware of the Gold of west Africa and the possible converts down there.
Once they develop something similar to the Caravel they could tap into the entire west coast of Africa like the Portuguese did. However unlike the Portuguese the Almohads would be more likely to try to develop sub-saharan Africa as an Islamic ally against potential christian invaders.
I want clarification: do you mean geographically Arican (i.e. the empire's powerbase is within the AFrican continent) or culturally African (the predominant culture/religion of the empire is indigenous African)? Because lots of these scenarios revolve around Islamic powers.
You're basically proposing, then, an empire of similar size and borders as French West Africa (plus Morocco)? That's also very tricky to do, since very little that would naturally lead to cohesiveness, geographically or culturally.
Islam can be as African as Christianity can be European. Neither creed originated in those respective continents.
Yes I agree very much with your religion point.
I don't think it has to be a territorial empire, but rather an economic empire. First I think a good way of ending or at least weakening European dominance, is to stop European global exploration. Early on Portuguese and Spanish explorers relied on island hopping, the Canaries, Madiera, Cape Verde, and Sao Tome were all very important to the eventual routes to Asia, and even Latin America.
If the Almohads could reach similar levels of wealth as the Portuguese, then they could definitely invest in a lasting maritime empire in West Africa.
Admittedly ASB but if you keep the last Ice Age going for longer, then Africa is going to be in a good position vis-a-vis the traditional power houses in Asia and Europe. Since the world is cooler the malaria and tsetse fly issues aren't nearly as prevalent. Likewise Africa also finds itself with much more fertile land compared to Europe or Asia, which is certainly going to help.
If everything goes well, Africa becomes the cradle of civilization and with any luck we can have an "Afro-Steampunk" world, like the suggestion in the craziest punk thread, where goggle wearing African adventurers must take their steamships into the heart of darkest (and in this case coldest) Europe.
If everything goes well, Africa becomes the cradle of civilization and with any luck we can have an "Afro-Steampunk" world, like the suggestion in the craziest punk thread, where goggle wearing African adventurers must take their steamships into the heart of darkest (and in this case coldest) Europe.
Based from?
The Bight and the Guinea Current problem have been mentioned, and the Swahili states were pretty strictly naval powers, and even then couldn't resist neither Oman nor Portugal (neither was a superpower by any means).
I can see a Mali successor operating from Arguin maybe, but then the communication would be with Europe rather than other places in Africa.
As for non-horse Ghazis, that's difficult. Foot warriors have a far smaller effective raiding range and no particular advantage over the pagans they would be facing. Notably, neither the Swahili states nor the Kongo were able to permanently overcome the states in the Zimbabwe-Zambia-Angola belt. This is an area with active state formation that begins in the 14th c. at least, so you'd think they had plenty of opportunity.
It really depends on your POD - if you increase the severity of the apparent pandemic of the 6th Century to batter Europe down far lower than they ended up, you might get enough "bleed-over" (no pun intended), to nip Islam in the bud.
At that point, the only African state with the chops to make it as a real Imperial state is Abyssinia/Ethiopia...but they will take a LOT of work to get beyond anything more than a really big tribal kingdom.
I'm just not sure whether Mali or Ghana could sustain an Imperial or even Republican state for long....
At that point, the only African state with the chops to make it as a real Imperial state is Abyssinia/Ethiopia...but they will take a LOT of work to get beyond anything more than a really big tribal kingdom.
I'm just not sure whether Mali or Ghana could sustain an Imperial or even Republican state for long....
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
- How about having a POD sometime around 476 AD?
- There's a Vandal kingdom in North Africa and though I can't see that possibly lasting that long, maybe a Romance-speaking successor state centered around Carthage and neighboring territories can take its place and possibly be the spiritual heir to Carthage, running trade in the western Mediterranean.
- Hey? Why not have Egypt split off from the Eastern Roman Empire and establish a somewhat Hellenized Coptic state based in Alexandria. It would be the first native Egyptian state in almost a thousand years. That would be something.
- There's a Vandal kingdom in North Africa and though I can't see that possibly lasting that long, maybe a Romance-speaking successor state centered around Carthage and neighboring territories can take its place and possibly be the spiritual heir to Carthage, running trade in the western Mediterranean.
- Hey? Why not have Egypt split off from the Eastern Roman Empire and establish a somewhat Hellenized Coptic state based in Alexandria. It would be the first native Egyptian state in almost a thousand years. That would be something.
I don't like to speak for other people, but I think Saepe Fidelis was asking more for a Sub-Saharan African domination, rather than North African.
Probably the best option lies on the east. A powerful Africa requires naval trade, the east has decent access to India & Far Asia, and access to the Middle East as well. Subsidiaries of Great Zimbabwe in what is now known as Mozambique were trading with China as early as 1300AD; so, if you could get some sort of networking with the Muslims and the Asians; you could possibly have technology transfer as well.
Although that said the basic problem of the Southern African kingdoms is that it was always very hard for people to stay in one place. Even the stone cities were abandoned, and any king who exerted his influence too deeply on the proto-tswana would wake up one day and find that all of his people had abandoned him.
Although that said the basic problem of the Southern African kingdoms is that it was always very hard for people to stay in one place. Even the stone cities were abandoned, and any king who exerted his influence too deeply on the proto-tswana would wake up one day and find that all of his people had abandoned him.
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Not my thread mate, but I would say that the spirit of the thread is to try and hypothesise about a culturally African state becoming a sovereign power, in the likeness of Abyssinia, just maybe bigger and elsewhere. Now my hypothesis was an Islamic state, probably around OTL Zimbabwe and Mozambique would be your best bet-good arable land, lots of mineral wealth, potential ties to India and shielding from the north by the Kenyan highlands and the Congo basin.
I'd correct you. EURASIA usually has dominated throughout. Western European dominance is quite a recent thing. Your statement is mostly true, however, if referred to the last three of four centuries.
For the challenge, does North Africa counts?
I think a Monophysite Christian African Empire centered in Ethiopia would be possible before the domination of Islam in East Africa..
Islamic? Islam didn't get that far down until very recently; that's ignoring the already very entrenched Animist beliefs of the indigenous peoples in those countries. The reason Christianity was adopted was because of Christian teachers, now, if your idea is that India trades with Zimbabwe and Mozambique wouldn't it be a lot more likely that Hinduism is adopted?
That said, a very large kingdom did encompass both countries around the 14th & 15th centuries, and it's known that they did trade with both India and China; however, what isn't known is why there was no adoption of Indian or Chinese writing or technology.