after WWI you buy a new fleet

[Ward]

After WWI you buy a new fleet

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As a minor nation in a world were WWI ended in a Truce on 11/11/1918 and the Great powers are selling off Battleships , Battle Cruisers and other ships what would you buy ?
Your nation is owed by the Great Powers enough money to buy up to 250,000, tons of surface warships (deep load ) that are build , building or laid down in 1919 . You realize that these ships will have to serve in your navy for the next 30 years . Your nation will be able to afford to Upgrade these ships in the Mid 1930's but the Great Powers have told the world they will not build any warships for minor nations over 10,000 tons until 1949 , and no warship with Guns over 6 in until 1939 .
At this time most of your warships were Build and commissioned in the 1880's to 1904 your navy now has 200,000 tons of warships in it and have 20,000 men in your navy . During WWI you were neutral but your navy was forced to fight minor naval battles with both sides on your Trade Routes . Your nation is a major Exporter of food , coal , Oil and iron .
But you nation has been warned by your two neighbors that they will buy 150,000 tons of warships each if your nation goes ahead and buys these ships .

 

[sharlin]

First things first, get rid of the old ships unless they are destroyers and even then only the most modern ones. This brings in money from scrapping them and saves having to maintain obsolete relics.

The Derrflinger and Hindenburg and Lutzow (if she wasnt sunk) call it 90k tonnes, fine, heavily armoured battlecruisers probably some of the best designed ones in the world and along with the Tiger probably the best looking.

As a Flagship another capital ship one of the Konig class Dreadnoughts for ease of getting spares as they have the same guns as the Derrflinger's. call her another 30k tonnes (maybe get another Konig class for 60k tonnes)

If the Lutzow is sunk buy the incomplete hull of the SMS Saschen and speak to the English about converting her into an aircraft carrier, with some work she should be comparable to the Eagle.
Cruisers next

HMS Birkenhead and HMS Chester good light cruisers with a potent and useful armament also approach the UK with the goal of buying the plans to build the class. Call them 10,500 tonnes

Also get the Southampton, Chatam, Dublin, and replace their 6 inch guns with 5.5's, call them 30,000 tonnes

The rest fill up with V-W Class destroyers

 

[Cook]

As a minor nation in a world were WWI ended in a Truce on 11/11/1918 and the Great powers are selling off Battleships , Battle Cruisers and other ships...

I am not sure which is less likely, the Great War ending in a truce on November 11th 1918, or that the Great Powers, having only just survived four years of the most cataclysmic war in history by the skin of their teeth and still faced with the same undefeated enemies, would consider getting rid of any of their weapons at all, let alone the most powerful vessels in their fleets!

 

[phx1138]

would consider getting rid of any of their weapons at all, let alone the most powerful vessels in their fleets!

I'm taking it to mean the oldest ships, all pre-dreads, & surplus DDs & such.

So, if possible, I'd want all Britain's R-class subs, & as many H-class boats as she'd part with. I'd also incline to Euralus & Bacchante. I think I'd go after German torpedo boats or small DDs, rather than anything bigger.

 

[docfl]

I figure selling ships to pay for the war?

 

[BlondieBC]

All Predreads were basically worthless if fighting a 15" gun dread or larger. Since you have a truce, we likely see 17" or larger guns since the arms race will not end. The importance of 17" guns is they will likely make the armor schemes of the 11" to 13.5" gunned ships suspect since ships we tend to be armored to stop a gun similar to their own gun and jumping up two gun classes makes any armor scheme suspect. Not worthless, but much riskier to field. A ship that has a good chance of stopping a 12" round will often have serious issues eating a 15" round and keep fighting. You will see similar issues with the 17" + rounds and the 13.5" ships. So unless the navies are willing to sell their newest ships, there is not point in buying them unless the price is really, really good. Now if you have a Washington like treaty limiting guns and ship sizes, i would look at the 13.5" ships if well priced.

Now it also helps if you know the nation, since different nations have different needs. Turkey is not Brazil is not Bulgaria. For example, Brazil might want faster cruisers that can both defend its long coastline and be merchant raiders or embargo enforcers against Argentina in a war. The Ottomans are looking at potential wars with the UK or Russia. The Ottomans will never be able to stand up to the British fleet even if the British refuse to use capital ships for some reason. Cruiser are a lot less valuable, so you may well want to focus on a coastal defense force, submarines, mines, and coastal artillery. And if using a capital ship near the capitol, speed is much less of an issue for the Ottomans. A slower, heavier armed battleship might look very attractive. But to Brazil, the might be looking at a fast Battleship. For the Ottomans, ships like what the Finns had in the interwar years might even make sense. As might monitors.

You just don't pick ships because they fell good (at least if you name is not Kaiser Willie). You have to setup a plan for how you are going to defend your country. You have to decide what you strategic interests are. You have to decide what you budget is. And surface ships are only a plurality at best of what you have to look at. You question seems to be more about what are the best ship designs than how to build a navy for a nation. And the truth is there is no best ship design. Different things work for different nations.

 

[NothingNow]

Figure this is a general modernization, so anything that can't keep up with the new stuff, or be made useful somewhere gets a trip to the scrap yard. Most of the Armored Cruisers that aren't worn out will get the pass to serve as Convoy escorts and the like, same with the old destroyers, and a few ships might be converted to tenders, or maybe an aircraft carrier if we have something large enough (like an Armored Cruiser we could just completely gut.)

Old Armored Cruisers close to the Drake-class would actually be perfect as convoy escorts (once given new guns,) while older protected cruisers capable of 20-23kts and of about ~6000 tons displacement could probably handle smaller raiders and run down submarines just fine, while being handy sea boats, or be converted to submarine/destroyer tenders or a light carrier (which would be best built at our own yards for a variety of reasons anyway.)

But as this screams ABC Power, this is my general idea for the new stuff:

50 Wickes-class Destroyers, call it 62350 tonnes total (50 @1247 tonnes.)
Three Emerald-Class cruisers currently on order in the UK (9,435 tonnes each, 28,305 total)
Four Danae-class Cruisers (5,925 tonnes each, 23,700 total.)
Which puts us at 114,355 tonnes.

As for submarines:
All three Type U-139s (1,930 tonnes each, 5790 total)
the six surviving Type U 151s (1,512 tonnes each, 9072 total)
Two Dozen Type Mittel Us (808 tonnes each, 19392 total)
Six Type UCIIs (434 tonnes each, 2604 tonnes total.)
36858 tonnes of submarine.
151,213tonnes of ship total.

Capital ships might be a bit trickier.
The IJN's Tosa-class Battleships on the drawing board would be perfect, at 44,900tonnes each, totaling some 89800 tonnes. They're the best we can possibly get, and mostly future-proof, although they'll need better machinery to be really competitive in 30 years, and ought to be converted to straight oil-burners while under construction.
Which puts us at 241,013 tonnes total for 98 vessels, leaving some room for a converted carrier or another pair of cruisers. Something the size Hōshō ought to do the trick. Alternately, drop 5-10 Destroyers for extra cruisers or a full-size carrier.

Of the Cruisers, I figure each of the Danaes and an Emerald would be used as Destroyer-leaders with 5 to 10 Wickes-class, while the two other Emeralds would serve alongside the Tosas if there was a need to form hunting/raiding groups with the BBs.

But aside from all that, with the money made from scrapping the ships that can't keep up or be repurposed, we build tenders and oilers for the fleet, and refit what we can with more modern weaponry and systems, meaning BL 9.2 inch Mk XIs, BL 7.5 inch Mk Vs, 4"/50 Mark 9 guns, etc.

 

[Ward]

At the End of the Great War the Major and Great powers are in Debt which will take years to pay off . In the Truce agreement the Great powers have agreed on fleet sizes of 17 - 15 - 12 -11-6-6-4-3 They can sell off any ships they want to minor nations to help pay for the War .Great powers in order British Empire , US of A , Germany , Japan , France , Italy ,Aus/Hugary , Ottomans

Here are the minor nations looking for Fleets , Sweden of 1700, Netherlands , Union of South Africa , Argentina , Republic of Aust/new Zealand , and Spain .

Nations that will buy fleets if these nations buy 250,000 tons of ships .
Denmark of 1700 , Brazil , Chile , Portugal ,Siam of 1800 .

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I'll tackle Australia/ New Zealand. They have a vast coastline and small population.

They need a patrol force and some method of taking on attacking ships. I'd buy the Royal Navy's redundant Seaplane Carriers and HMS Vindictive to fulfill the coastal patrol need, and fully convert Vindictive into a small carrier. If the money is there I would also suggest buying a couple of fast reefer ships for future conversion to carriers.

I'd also want at least 30 reasonably modern destroyers with a similar number of submarines. Although this may seem a mistake I would want some of the submarines to be the K class steam powered submarines. Although they had a dreadful accident rate in the RN (my grandfather served on one) they would provide a useful rapid reaction force and as they would not be attempting to work with a battle fleet most of the safety issues would be irrelevant. For the rest of the subs I would want a mix of German Cruiser submarines and RN hunter killers.

The Government may insist on a Battleship or two for prestige, if so I'd recommend the Queen Elizabeth class.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I'd look to buy some ships for completion so that lessons and modernity can be built into them - the Graf Spee and Mackensen would be a good bet, since the German Republic would be grateful for the work!

I'd probably look to buy the Rurik if I could get my hands on it, or a couple of British Warrior class armoured cruisers.

German H class destroyers from the Iron Patrol which is going to end up broken up eventually or sold off

And some subs

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[hairysamarian]

After WWI you buy a new fleet

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As a minor nation in a world were WWI ended in a Truce on 11/11/1918 and the Great powers are selling off Battleships , Battle Cruisers and other ships what would you buy ?

Knowing what I know now? None of them; they're all obsolete junk. Unless I get them at scrap metal prices and can use them as raw material for new construction (read: new carriers, cruisers and destroyers suitable for modern roles.)

If I'm being forced to be more realistic as to what a smaller nation can probably afford, then nix the carriers and rely on land-based aircraft.

 

[Living in Exile]

The original post specifies that I risk starting an arms race. I'm imagining the dictator of Argentina, Brazil or Chile, because those countries could plausibly find themselves find them self in a situation like the one outlined in the OP. Only a dictator could have this level of control over what is spent. I'll pretend I'm a leftist dictator too, because that's also plausible for the time-period and my personal tenancies.


Rather than spending the money abroad, I'd want that money spent in my country; better infrastructure, education, etc. Heck, instead of paying the money for battleships to be build in the docks of Britain, I'll pay the technicians and engineers to come to my country and help me create an indigenous ship building industry. Foreign built warships are probably the most useless things to spend money on. I don't want to increase my reliance on the Western Imperialists.

 

[Ward]

The original post specifies that I risk starting an arms race. I'm imagining the dictator of Argentina, Brazil or Chile, because those countries could plausibly find themselves find them self in a situation like the one outlined in the OP. Only a dictator could have this level of control over what is spent. I'll pretend I'm a leftist dictator too, because that's also plausible for the time-period and my personal tenancies.


Rather than spending the money abroad, I'd want that money spent in my country; better infrastructure, education, etc. Heck, instead of paying the money for battleships to be build in the docks of Britain, I'll pay the technicians and engineers to come to my country and help me create an indigenous ship building industry. Foreign built warships are probably the most useless things to spend money on. I don't want to increase my reliance on the Western Imperialists.

you realize that the only way the Great powers will be able to pay there loans to your country is through the sell of the ships other wise you might only get 10% of what they owe you .

 

[NothingNow]

you realize that the only way the Great powers will be able to pay there loans to your country is through the sell of the ships other wise you might only get 10% of what they owe you .

Yeah, this is pretty much an all or nothing situation.
At worst, you could sell the fleet for scrap in 20 years and invest that.

 

[HMS Warspite]

As a minor power, hypothetically, at least, your new navy would not benefit from capital ships, as there could never be more than a handful at best, while the supporting fleet would be limmited in size, due to the overall limmitations. Therefore cappital ships are ruled out, leaving more tonnage for more useful units.

I think the best way to build up a navy is to look at first to what is needed and what is essential. If the nation has oversea territories to protect (like the Netherlands), build, or buy cruisers sized ships, togehter with supporting units. If there is only the own coast to protect (like most minor north European states), buy large numbers of fast attack vessels and submarines.

What was available:
Germany had lots and lots of fast attack type vessels available, which suited the needs for a Skandinavian state best, as well as nations like the netherlands, but only for their coast defence operations at home. Submarines too were plenty in numbers, so could be taken over as well, with the longer ranged cruiser types useful for oversea deployement and the small coastal ones for coast defence.
Germany had a few modern light cruisers, but these were all short ranged in nature, designed only for North Sea operations. Perhaps reconstruction with larger bunkers would make them useful to colonial powers, but not necessarilly.

A colonial power might also go shopping in the surplus ofthe Royal Navy for longer ranged cruisers. The Birmingham class and also the new Hawkins classes were attenting. (Though the later were not for sale naturally.)

 

[Jim Smitty]

Battlecruisers
Derffinger and Hindenburg

Heavy Cruisers
3 of the Hawkins Class on order in the UK

Light Cruisers
All Three Emerald Class on order in the UK
Three Ohama Class on order in the US

Destroyers
47 of Clemson on order in the US

Submarines
5 U-151 Class
3 U-139 Class
27 R Class submarines on order in the US

 

[HMS Warspite]

Battlecruisers
Derffinger and Hindenburg

Heavy Cruisers
3 of the Hawkins Class on order in the UK

Light Cruisers
All Three Emerald Class on order in the UK
Three Ohama Class on order in the US

Destroyers
47 of Clemson on order in the US

Submarines
5 U-151 Class
3 U-139 Class
27 R Class submarines on order in the US

The Omaha was not even in the buildingyards at the time, so not available. Perhaps these ships would become available, but more potent shisp were available at the same time as well, such as the newly build French Duguay-Trouin class, which was the first true modern light cruiser design, while all other navies still used obsolete ships, with shielded single guns in their designs at the time. (The Omaha only at the very latest recieved two twin turrets, as additional armament, due to the threat of the newly designed Japanese Large Scout cruisers, whcih became the Furataka Class heavy cruiser. Previously these Omaha's only fielded eight 6 inch/53 guns in cassemattes only, with the aftermost lower pair useless in a seaway, resulting in an effective three gun broadside only!!!)

The Clemson class was still being build at the time, so not available as well, besides being quite obsolete in design, compared to the more advanced British designs of the period. (V&W type was copnsiderably more powerfull and always the better seaboat, while the small S-Class too was a better seaboat too, while having the same fightingpower as the larger USN DD, due to the all centerline armament, the USN destroyer lacked.)

Also: what do you do with the complex battlecruisers, when they need an overhaul? These ships were foreign in origin and needed large docks to fit in, as well as a developped yard to refit. Minor powers usually lack both, so need good friendly relations with a major power to have their large ships maintained.

 

[AdA]

Assuming we're talking 250000t standard and that anything laid down up to 1919 goes:
2 Kongo BC
2 Hermes CVL
8 D Cruisers
8 GTB1916 (S113) DD
24 W DD
24 Hunt MSW
24 Conquerant PB
24 S (USA) SSK
24 UBIII SSK
4 Leaf OR

 

[David S Poepoe]

Armistice's mean nothing until a peace treaty is signed, or imposed. No country would consider disarming until the last signature is written.

 

[AdA]

Assuming we're talking 250000t standard and that anything laid down up to 1919 goes:
2 Kongo BC
2 Hermes CVL
8 D Cruisers
8 GTB1916 (S113) DD
24 W DD
24 Hunt MSW
24 Conquerant PB
24 S (USA) SSK
24 UBIII SSK
4 Leaf OR

Mid to late 30s upgrades.
Kongo class converted to fast BB along the lines of the final QE modernisation, with twin 4.5'' secondaries, new machinery and increased horizontal protection.
Hermes given more compact Island, revised AA
The D cruisers replace one 6'' with a twin 4'' AA
GTB 1916 large destroyers converted to AA destroyers with three twin 4'' and one twin 40mm replacing 5.9 guns. TT revert to standard 21''
W class DD given fast escort conversations as soon as new more modern destroyers enter service.
Conquerant PBoats replace their disesl with more modern units and trade rear 100mm for twin 40mm AA
Hunt class MSW given improved ASW equipment and more light AA for expanded escort capabilities when not needed for mine warfare.
S and UBIII class submarines replaced with same number of Italian built Glauco and Argo classes units and placed in reverse.