Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

[False Dmitri]

Hello! This is a very lovely project that I've been keeping an eye on for awhile. I gotta ask, what's going on with California? What's its history? I hope this question isn't unwanted or whatever, just curious. Love this project, again!

A lot was written starting on page 13 of the thread and continuing for a few pages after that. The summary version: In the 1850s, California was Mexican territory, but a lot of foreign interests were becoming more active. The main ones were Russia, England, and the ASB states of New Netherland and Massachusetts Bay. And England's presence was very Boreoamerican as well, with a lot of its people on the ground coming from the Loyalist states, especially New England. All these powers were taking little colonial enclaves, mostly around the Bay area.

The discovery of gold around 1860 lit a match to all this. The different sides were willing to fight for the gold. Now the details of the war were never worked out, but we know the ASB states stuck together, and that would include England, so we can assume that Mexico and Russia fought on the other side. But there were also independent elements, including some freebooter renegade Boreoamerican types, and we can be assured that they made the war a lot more complicated, messy, and long.

The solution was the California Union, an organization designed to mimic the ASB but which never really worked right. Californians have been trying to fix it ever since. Some individual states have been very successful, but the Union as a whole has only been intermittently healthy.

Some maps:

The Union (some of the small inland states are probably subject to change) - by @Upvoteanthology with some tweaks by me

Here are two maps by @Doctor President.

Baja California (See his post for an astounding closeup map of the city of San Diego)

and Alta California:

and two far inferior maps by me.

Russian California:

And New Albion:

 

[False Dmitri]

What was Emily Dickinson like ITTL?

There are some allusions to American literature here and there in the project, but so far none to Dickinson as far as I know. Here's what I can say in general. In OTL, so many of the canonical giants of American literature are from Massachusetts. In TTL, that's also the case, but they're seen as the geniuses of Massachusetts literature. Dickinson and the others are widely read, especially in schools in the English states, but it's Massachusetts where they're embraced as "ours." That's actually one of the major things that TTL's Massachusetts has going for it. New Hampshire has lighthouses, Lower Louisiana has jambalaya, Watauga has whiskey, Cuba has dancing, and Massachusetts has literature. The stereotype is that if you come from there, you must be intellectual and kind of elitist, not true of course.

 

[False Dmitri]

And something new: Cuba's history is slowly taking shape, but for now I'll tease this map.

 

[Tsochar]

I randomly started thinking about prohibition in the ASB.

As a nationwide thing, I can't see any reason for the ASB to have implemented prohibition. The idea, historically, was pushed by midwestern Protestants, particularly women (the famous Women's Christian Temperance Union), who saw alcohol as the reason men beat their wives, started fistfights, and wasted their paychecks. It was also fueled by anti-German sentiment stoked in part by WWI and the fact that Germans allowed themselves to drink on Sundays. In Canada, prohibition was a provincial thing; Ontario had exemptions for locally-made wines, and Quebec barely had prohibition in place at all. Prince Edward Island, on the other hand, was completely dry until 1948.
After Prohibition in the US was repealed in 1933, the nation set up its current three-tier system wherein importers and producers can only sell alcohol to wholesalers, and wholesalers are the only ones that can sell to private consumers. Additionally, several states established monopolies over the sale of spirits in order to provide extra tax revenue to make up for the Great Depression; 17 of these are still active. I expect this sort of arrangement would be rare in the ASB.

Spoiler

The states that were most supportive of the Prohibition Party (not the same as the states most supportive of prohibition, which is difficult to quantify):
1. Florida - In Florida, prohibition had a distinctly anti-black flavor, led by then-governor Sidney Catts. Catts liked to spread conspiracy theories about German-sponsored black rebellions and Vatican-led efforts to take over America, and he often said that any black person who was lynched deserved it. Unsurprisingly, he lived in the panhandle of the state. Spirits such as rum and scotch were frequently brought in from the Bahamas and other Caribbean states, where sale remained legal throughout prohibition, and the profits that southern Florida gained from rum-running fueled the first land boom there, making local officials hesitant to enforce the ban. Perhaps because of this, 5% of Floridians voted for the 1924 Prohibition Party candidate compared to 0.19% nationwide.
2. Michigan - Detroit was the first major city in the country to become completely dry in 1918, led by the largely rural WCTU and business leaders who predicted better profits if fewer of their workers drank. Detroit subsequently became a center of smuggling due to its convenient location next to Windsor, Ontario. The Detroit-based Jewish crime organization, the Purple Gang, at one point controlled 75% of the alcohol smuggling trade in the country. In 1933, Michigan became the first state to repeal prohibition.
3. Pennsylvania - Pennsylvania, to this day, has some of the strictest liquor laws in the country due in part to Gifford Pinchot, governor from 1923-1935, who was also an avid conservationist. Pinchot cracked down hard on bootlegging during prohibition; when prohibition ended, he called a special legislative session to keep strict regulations on liquor. The system he created is still in place to this day, although restrictions have loosened over time. Pennsylvania and Utah are still the only states that requires wine to be sold in liquor stores. Pinchot's family estate was located in northeast Pennsylvania, in the area corresponding with eastern Poutaxia in the ASB.
4. Minnesota - Andrew Volstead, the author of the eponymous act that described the implementation of the Eighteenth Amendment, was a Minnesota native, born along the border with Wisconsin but became a resident of Granite Falls, in the southwest of the state corresponding to the ASB's Dakota. The state had boomed massively in population in the 1910s, bringing in Germans, Poles, Swedes, and other immigrant groups that brought unfamiliar drinking customs into the state; consequently, temperance sentiment was high here. However, agricultural overproduction in the 1920s led to plummeting prices, and many in the state brewed moonshine to save their finances. Minnesota 13 was probably the most famous moonshine brand.
5. California - Although it didn't go dry before the 18th amendment was passed, the state was an early supporter of temperance, despite its thriving vineyard industry. Charles Randall of LA was the only Prohibition Party member to make it to congress, and one of that city's radio preachers, Robert P Shuler, got the most votes out of any Prohibition Party candidate. However, California had some of the poorest enforcement of prohibition, owing to the sheer size of the state and the proclivities of San Francisco in particular; SF was second only to New York in terms of alcohol consumption during prohibition. California's vineyards took full advantage of the provisions the Volstead Act made for sacramental wine, medical alcohol, and the up to 200 gallons per year they were allowed to make for "home use" for some reason, and they also sold grapes to home growers, although many vineyards did simply close.
6. Wisconsin - This state was very rural at the turn of the century, and was the destination of many Germans, which inspired the WCTU to act. Wisconsin doubled down on the Volstead Act by passing the Severson act, which (redundantly) required the state to follow the Volstead act. Enforcement was lax, however, and the Severson act was repealed in 1927. The Socialist Party, largely based in Wisconsin, was instrumental in repealing prohibition in the state and to a lesser extent nationally.

Special mention goes to:
Kansas, which had prohibition from 1881 to 1948, earlier and longer than any state, and for being the home of WCTU leader Carrie Nation, who was famous for going to saloons and destroying them with a hatchet.
Oklahoma, whose steadfast refusal to enforce their own alcohol ban kept alcohol illegal until 1959. To this day, beer must be served at at least room temperature in the state.
North Carolina, which similarly banned sales of alcohol from 1908 to 1937.
Kentucky, which passed local and county ordinances during and after prohibition that make the state a unique maze of confusing liquor laws to this day. Maryland has a similar, though less confusing, system where individual municipalities pass dry ordinances.

The least pro-temperance state was, of course, Louisiana, although Utah, surprisingly, never voted for statewide or national prohibition and South Carolina blocked Prohibition Party members from appearing on the ballot.

Since Francophone areas seemed to resist temperance, I imagine very few of the states that primarily use French would pass temperance ordinances, although Pays D'en Haut would probably allow its constituent regions to go dry locally. Carolina, baptist as it is, would probably join the temperance movement, but the Floridas would probably be too catholic to pass such a thing. Poutaxia, on the other hand, would be a neat candidate to be the only state in the ASB to still have prohibition, maybe with confusing and nonsensical loopholes in place. I'd also like to preserve Kentucky's weirdness for Upper Virginia's liquor laws.

Native Americans have a controversial history with alcohol, particularly the stereotype of being vulnerable to alcohol; in Canada, indigenous people were not allowed to purchase alcohol unless they could become Canadian citizens; this was one of many restrictive assimilation measures. In the United States, Alcohol was illegal on Indian reservations due to federal law until 1953, when that authority was devolved to the tribal governments. Due to the Native American community's struggles with alcohol, most tribes passed their own prohibition statutes anyway, which were of course unsuccessful. 63% of reservations now allow sales of alcohol within their territory. I expect that natives in the ASB, due to the generally lower levels of oppression suffered, would not have such horrific levels of alcoholism. A quick glance at alcohol consumption rates in Central and South America tells me that countries with a higher proportion of indigenous people tend to have lower overall alcohol consumption.

Also, in my research I found that the Russian Empire restricted sales of alcohol to licensed restaurants only in 1914, ostensibly to keep their soldiers from getting drunk, and this law was preserved in the USSR until 1923. At the same time, the Nordic Countries had a christian revivalist movement that led to their own prohibition laws that were similarly short-lived. With this in mind, I think it might be that the Imperial Commonwealth would have led the temperance movement in TTL, as opposed to the United States and Great Britain. With that in mind, Christiania might have gone through its own prohibition phase, though it would be very much unenforceable.

 

[Venusian Si]

So wow. There's been so much that's been posted on this thread over the last year, and reading all the new material since I've last posted has been so much fun! Just wanted to say congrats to False Dmitri and everyone else who contributed for growing the world of the ASB. Like I said, it's been fun catching up.

And with that said, I must admit that I've been inspired to write a new post about the ASB's version of Atlanta called Peachtree (from FD's road map a few pages back). The below is inspired by the pages for Carolina, Muscoguia, Cherokee, the Floridas, the timeline from the wiki, and previous discussion about the area on this thread. I also have a few ideas for the area's 20th/21st century too, but I wanted to post this first half to make sure it gelled with what's already been established. So without further ado -

The History of Peachtree - Part 1

“Of Muscogi and Carolinians – The 1750s to the 1810s”

Originally the eastern edge of the Muscogi historic homeland, the areas of the future Peachtree Metropolitan Area and the Ocmulgee River basin had been relatively depopulated by the 1750s - the time when Carolinians first settled there in any significant numbers. Despite the decline of the original population, the Muscogi people still fiercely considered the region an intrinsic part of their homeland [1]. Of course with the Muscogi nation still reeling from the loss of their East Florida conquest and the internal strife caused by playing a balancing act between the English, Spanish, and French, the latter half of the 18th Century would mostly see Muscogi leadership loudly protesting any Carolinian settlement while local individuals did the actual acts of physical resistance. Likewise with the issues of the Independence Wars, the succession of Watauga, the evolving sphere of influence in Cherokee, and a focus on Caribbean trade as major distractions, the late 18th Century would see the Carolinians/English ignore the temptation of annexing the rich agricultural land of Eastern Muscoguia – while doing nothing to discourage the Carolinian settlers who were moving there and to West Florida.

Despite an official stance of non-aggression from the leadership of both sides, the quasi-No Man’s Land between Muscoguia and Carolina would see decades of small skirmishes and raids between the remaining Muscogi and incoming Carolinian settlers. This period of violence would retroactively become known as the “Muscogi-Carolinian Conflict” or more poetically “The Strife of the Ocmulgee.” While this era of small-scale conflict would last for decades, it would become all-out war when Carolina declared sovereignty over the English settlements of West Florida, and shortly thereafter, declared sovereignty of the English settlements in both Ocmulgee River Basin and in Muscogi territory further west.

The Ocmulgee River War, generally considered a subset of the Florida Wars, would last a decade. While the first few battles were originally just between the Muscogi and Carolinians, the Cherokee would soon join their Carolinian allies and quickly force the Muscogi to fight both an Eastern Front and a Northern Front. As with the rest of the Florida Wars, fighting between the three states would come to an end in 1819 with one of the treaty negotiations that would eventually result in the “Southern Settlement” – the set of accords that was meant to permanently establish the borders between the many warring states. While negotiation for the Florida Wars ultimately proved successful, the end results left many deeply dissatisfied. The Muscogi were forced to unquestionably acknowledge Carolinian sovereignty over the Ocmulgee River Basin, but the Carolinians were also forced to finally acknowledge Muscogi sovereignty over the land west of the Ocmulgee River Basin – with severe punishment promised for any potential future Carolinian filibustering.

Out of the three parties, the Cherokee could be argued to have come out of the war in the best shape. While suffering no significant loses in the establishment of the western portion of the Muscogi-Cherokee border, the Cherokee actually added a not insignificant chunk of land in their southeast. As with the Ocmulgee River Basin, the newly gained territory was depopulated by the time the Cherokee acquired it. Still, in it was the remains of an old Muscogi settlement whose name had some years earlier had been translated [2] by Carolinian soldiers as "Standing Peachtree." When it was noted by one Cherokee observer that it felt appropriate since the land was home to “some bountiful peach trees…”, the name Peachtree for the newly gained land as a whole stuck.

[1] Most importantly of which was the Ocmulgee Burial Mounds, a Muscogi religious site built by a predecessor people.

[2] IOTL, the name is either hypothesized to be an actual faithful translation, or a mistranslation of Pitch(pine)tree. While the Cherokee might have known about the latter being a possibility, it seems reasonable to continue using the name their Carolinian allies used.

“Peachtree: From Planned Rail Hub to City – The 1820s to the 1890s”

Cherokee sovereignty over what would eventually become the city of Peachtree would only last a total of 17 years. Starting in the mid of the 1820s, the Carolinian government began to take note of the wealth generated from the states in the North – especially in the Upper Country. It was also noted at the time that the then major trade routes were dominated by either the New Netherlanders/Canadians of the Northeast or by the Louisianans of the Mississippi River. It was in the beginning of the 1830s the Carolinian government believed it found a way around these two chokeholds on trade. It was decided that a rail hub out west would be built. Said rail hub would encourage the development of a Carolinian-friendly trade route through the states of Cherokee, Upper Virginia, Ohio, etc. and bring the wealth of the Great Lakes down to Carolina and to its major ports – without ever having to deal with those pesky Louisianans, New Netherlanders, etc. When land surveyors were sent in the early 1830s to find what part of Western Carolina would best help serve as a future deliverer of wealth, it was sheepishly suggested that the best place was actually across the border in the territory that the Cherokee took from the Muscogi.

And once again the politicians of Carolina found themselves quietly kicking themselves.

This roadblock though would prove to be only be a minor hindrance. With the still great deal of Carolinian influence in Cherokee, securing the land that would become Peachtree was relatively easy. It was making the purchase look respectable in the eyes of the other states that was the hard part. What would follow was a series of backroom meetings, bribes, arm-twisting, and a splashy PR campaign by the Carolinian government [1]. By 1836, the East Chattahoochee Purchase [2] was successfully made and fully acknowledged by the surrounding states and by the Grand Council. In 1837, the Northwestern and Atlantic Railroad was established by the Carolinian government and the first rails in Future Peachtree were laid not long after.

From 1839 to 1842, the settlement built at the heart of Carolina’s rail project was initially known under the name of Terminus. In 1842 though, the locals chose to rename the settlement after the previous Carolinian Premier George M. Troup in honor of negotiating the East Chattahoochee Purchase. Said name change was quickly followed by another that renamed the city Caldwell in honor of the then current Premier John C. Caldwell. What would then follow is a half decade long series of name changes done in the honor of various Carolinian Politicians, and members of the English Royal Family. By 1847 when the settlement had become mildly infamous in the state for its indecisiveness about its name, the name Peachtree was chosen as a compromise. While there were those who bristled at even using an anglicized version of a Muscogi settlement name, the years spent arguing had left many people weary of further debate. Ultimately though, the fact that over the last 20 years it was used by the Cherokee and an increasing number of White Carolinians to refer to the surrounding region combined with the relatively generic nature of the name, meant that name Peachtree was able to become the last name standing[3][4].

The first settlers to Peachtree were Low Carolinians who were hoping strike it rich from the state’s rail plan. Following them, more Low Carolinians came in order to farm the rich land on both sides of the Cherokee-Carolina border [5] – with many of the more well off Low Carolinians also bringing slaves to the region. As the city continued to grow, other nearby groups such as Piedmonters, Cherokee, and Upper Virginians also started to migrate to the region.

Still, the city’s first 40 years of growth in context of OTL was relatively modest. While the City of Peachtree suffered no total destruction from an OTL-style civil war, it would also have to deal with factors that hampered growth such as a slower than OTL rate of nationwide Industrialization, the lack of political capital from not being a state capital, etc.

In 1880 though, Peachtree would see the start of a population boom with the Emancipation of Carolina’s slaves. While the city of Peachtree had a small population of Freedmen before Emancipation, the economic opportunities it offered – plus the option to live right across the border in relatively freer Cherokee or Muscoguia - proved enticing to many newly freed Black Carolinians. Over the next couple of years, thousands of Black Carolinians would soon call the Peachtree region – both the city proper and the lands across the borders [6] – home. This rapid population growth also kicked off a feedback loop that encouraged higher Piedmonter and Cherokee immigration as well. The city’s first population boom would come to an end by the end of the 1880s. The 1890s would thus see a return to a modest rate of growth as the region now struggled with a radically different racial dynamic.

Few if any could imagine what the following century would bring.

[1] Historians in the modern ASB are in near universal agreement that the abuse of power by Carolina and the controversy it caused among the Cherokee helped to accelerate Cherokee leaving Carolina’s sphere of influence. “How fast though?” is still a matter of debate.

[2] Named after the eastern bank of the local river

[3] The name Atlanta comes from the proposed name “Atlantica-Pacifica.” Now in a scenario where the ASB or any alt-USA or equivalent lacks a Pacific focused sense of Manifest Destiny, one’s highly unlikely to name a city Pacifica. So that throws out that way of getting an “Atlanta.” Now whether if it’s completely implausible (especially if one does a connect X to the Atlantic rail deal) to name an inland city Atlanta is another question. It just might be too convergent for one’s taste though.

[4] Now something important that should be acknowledge is the racial implications of the words “Peachtree,” “Georgia Peach,” and the Peach as a southern symbol in general as addressed in this article here. While the Peach ITTL could still potentially mirror its OTL symbolism with perhaps a post-Emancipation/post-Monarchy “New Carolina” narrative replacing OTL’s “New South” narrative and thus affect how people perceive the city's name ITTL, the choice of Peachtree ITTL for Alt-Atlanta is actually just an innocuous decision derived purely from an older Muscogi settlement.

[5] The nearby Muscoguia lands were avoided by white Carolinians for obvious reasons.

[6] In fact, this first wave of Black Immigration to the region helped establish what would become many of the modern inner suburbs of the Muscoguia portion of modern metropolitan Peachtree – which before the 1880s was lightly populated.

 

[Tsochar]

[6] In fact, this first wave of Black Immigration to the region helped establish what would become many of the modern inner suburbs of the Muscoguia portion of modern metropolitan Peachtree – which before the 1880s was lightly populated.

This mention of suburbs makes me think. In OTL, the USA built highways using federal money to enable people to live in the suburbs and work in the cities if they could afford it. They also bulldozed lower-income neighborhoods to make convenient expressway ramps to make it easier for people living outside the city center, which of course led to overcrowding, crime, and the general blight that is only slowly being reversed.

In the ASB, we've already established that there's nothing like this, and only a few roads are maintained by the Confederation as a whole. In the first place, the petroleum-rich areas that made gasoline so affordable in the OTL US just aren't there. As a result, the uniquely American environment where the neighborhoods get wealthier the further away you get from the city center wouldn't develop, except maybe in a few cities.

I think it's probably likely that each state will have different urban planning policies that influence city development.
The US, as mentioned earlier, developed with personal mobility in mind. Older cities, such as Boston, grew out of a haphazard arrangement of roads that were not pre-planned. 20th-century cities like New York have kept a grid pattern with no real center or pre-planned core. Late 20th-century cities like Orlando were built to be convenient to the highway, rather than vice-versa, and as a result it's impossible to drive anywhere on surface streets. Finally, we have special cases like Miami, where all the development on a thin strip between the swamp and the ocean. Many cities in the US have an inner ring road connecting business districts with industrial districts and rail hubs, and a much larger ring road connecting outer suburbs, with few ring roads connecting inner suburbs.
Canada developed relatively later and more quickly than the US, and as a result there is less urban sprawl. Rapid Transit ridership is usually twice that in the US - around 10-20%. There are fewer highways going directly into cities, as well.
Australia relies heavily on roads, since there's too much land to cover otherwise. Its cities moved away from mass transit for a while, due to a general shift toward auto ownership, but they've since moved back.
Many large cities in Latin America rely on mass transit systems because the average citizen wasn't able to afford personal transportation; even though cars are more affordable now, a majority of commuters in large cities still use rapid transit. Similar patterns occurred in Asian cities, where large populations and low auto ownership made mass transit more effective tools for industrialization. In Europe, the dense existing developments made the kind of suburbanization that the US implemented less attractive, and they implemented rapid transit systems as well. Most of these places also have more well-defined ring road systems; Beijing has 6, for example.

In the US, the most crime was caused by discrimination in housing and the aforementioned destruction of low-income neighborhoods, particularly African-American ones. We might have the same discriminatory policies in Carolina and other areas with sordid racial histories that lead to racial ghettoes and concentrations of crime rates. When we consider that Spain's encomienda system caused massive societal stratification that most of Latin America hasn't been able to overcome, we might also expect discrimination in those states as well.
Similarly, OTL Caribbean countries still have very high crime rates due to their history of exploitation, and I think the ASB would still inherit that. In addition, the influx of tourism money juxtaposed against the lower income level of the islands has created many opportunities for crime. I would expect the Caribbean states to have
In Canada, the highest-crime areas in the past few years have been in the smaller cities in the Prairie provinces. This has been driven primarily by the increase in rural drug use among poor whites and First Nations, which might or might not be a factor in the ASB. However, the lack of discriminatory housing (historically there were very few minorities to discriminate against) has made the urban areas relatively safe compared to other countries.

Question for later: Does the ASB have a drug problem? What are the biggest offenders? Where do the drugs come from? Who uses them? Which areas are hardest-hit?

In Australia, crime rates are usually highest in the outer suburbs where housing is cheap and the socioeconomic level is generally poorer. Immigrants, especially lower-skilled ones, tend to settle there, and there are tensions between them and native-born Australians.

We again return to immigration. The problem with establishing patterns of immigration is that it's heavily dependent on the history of foreign countries, which haven't been well-developed. Complicating the issue, there are ethnic groups that exist in OTL that won't exist here, and ethnic groups here that won't exist in OTL.

 

[False Dmitri]

I randomly started thinking about prohibition in the ASB.

Not so random, it's come up before, about a year ago and a year before that. Post 939 quotes most of the discussion. I think most of what was said vibes with your thoughts here.

As a nationwide thing, I can't see any reason for the ASB to have implemented prohibition. The idea, historically, was pushed by midwestern Protestants, particularly women (the famous Women's Christian Temperance Union), who saw alcohol as the reason men beat their wives, started fistfights, and wasted their paychecks.

In some states, this impulse was also present. I think it would be fruitful to go back to the origins of the movement in Temperance rather than prohibition: a movement to change the behavior of individual men, who either pledged to drink moderately or not at all. An idea that I like is that this movement has had an uninterrupted history, evolving with the field of mental health; so that Temperance groups are the most typical way that alcoholic people in TTL seek help. I think that a relatively weak Prohibition movement could have helped the Temperance movement stay viable in the long term. In OTL, the movement declined because it became attached to what was seen as a failed policy.

It was also fueled by anti-German sentiment stoked in part by WWI and the fact that Germans allowed themselves to drink on Sundays.

Nativism certainly exists and has existed in TTL as well, though of course in a very different guise. There has never been any one "American" culture, but many states do conceive of their own cultures in rather monolithic terms. So the Germans would not face much backlash in places that had always had large German populations, such as Pennsylvania and New Netherland, but there are other places where they were certainly less welcome, perhaps in New England and parts of the Upper Country.

In Canada, prohibition was a provincial thing; Ontario had exemptions for locally-made wines, and Quebec barely had prohibition in place at all. Prince Edward Island, on the other hand, was completely dry until 1948.
After Prohibition in the US was repealed in 1933, the nation set up its current three-tier system wherein importers and producers can only sell alcohol to wholesalers, and wholesalers are the only ones that can sell to private consumers. Additionally, several states established monopolies over the sale of spirits in order to provide extra tax revenue to make up for the Great Depression; 17 of these are still active. I expect this sort of arrangement would be rare in the ASB.

Ontario has a state monopoly too, still fully in force. It might be fun to explore this option for some states. Something about it seems fitting for Chicasaw and Cherokee.

Since Francophone areas seemed to resist temperance, I imagine very few of the states that primarily use French would pass temperance ordinances, although Pays D'en Haut would probably allow its constituent regions to go dry locally. Carolina, baptist as it is, would probably join the temperance movement, but the Floridas would probably be too catholic to pass such a thing. Poutaxia, on the other hand, would be a neat candidate to be the only state in the ASB to still have prohibition, maybe with confusing and nonsensical loopholes in place. I'd also like to preserve Kentucky's weirdness for Upper Virginia's liquor laws.

Native Americans have a controversial history with alcohol, particularly the stereotype of being vulnerable to alcohol; in Canada, indigenous people were not allowed to purchase alcohol unless they could become Canadian citizens; this was one of many restrictive assimilation measures. In the United States, Alcohol was illegal on Indian reservations due to federal law until 1953, when that authority was devolved to the tribal governments. Due to the Native American community's struggles with alcohol, most tribes passed their own prohibition statutes anyway, which were of course unsuccessful. 63% of reservations now allow sales of alcohol within their territory. I expect that natives in the ASB, due to the generally lower levels of oppression suffered, would not have such horrific levels of alcoholism. A quick glance at alcohol consumption rates in Central and South America tells me that countries with a higher proportion of indigenous people tend to have lower overall alcohol consumption.

I agree that the movement was heavily Protestant in OTL and most likely in TTL as well... though there too it might be worth exploring. There doesn't seem to be anything inherent in Catholicism that would stop its adherents from wanting to do something about alcohol abuse, but the movement as it developed drew heavily on themes from certain branches of Protestantism. Pietists, Puritans, and Evangelicals emphasized seeking evidence of God at work through your life; Catholics (and some Protestants, namely my own Lutheran ancestors) lacked that emphasis. There's a reason the German Catholics and Lutherans saw little reason to feel guilty about their beer. Catholic temperance organizations certainly existed and still exist, but they have never had the reach that the Evangelical Protestant groups had.

As for Indian states, I think that the problem certainly existed in some areas. Cherokee seems a likely place where alcohol abuse spread along with eastern imports. Chicasaw and Muscoguia stayed a bit more aloof from White society.

Also, in my research I found that the Russian Empire restricted sales of alcohol to licensed restaurants only in 1914, ostensibly to keep their soldiers from getting drunk, and this law was preserved in the USSR until 1923. At the same time, the Nordic Countries had a christian revivalist movement that led to their own prohibition laws that were similarly short-lived. With this in mind, I think it might be that the Imperial Commonwealth would have led the temperance movement in TTL, as opposed to the United States and Great Britain. With that in mind, Christiania might have gone through its own prohibition phase, though it would be very much unenforceable.

Hard to say there, since Christiana's relationship with Sweden and Russia has been complex and zigzaggy the whole way through. There was a period of relatively direct engagement with Europe c. 1890-1910, when the institutions of the Imperial Commonwealth were taking shape. But by then Christiana had enjoyed self-government for several decades, so coordinating with the empire was more a matter of local leaders with a loyalist bent voting to go along with whatever the tsar was doing. But even this didn't last; for most of the early and middle 20th century the state always seemed just a few votes away from leaving the monarchy entirely. But the idea of a monopoly associated with the monarchy is an interesting one for sure. Maybe there's a story that can be traced there.

 

[False Dmitri]

The History of Peachtree - Part 1

So thanks very much for this. It's a great read and it manages to perfectly take the general ideas you posted earlier and expand on them in an interesting way. It gels exactly with established content. I've gone ahead and added dates to the timeline on the Wiki. Feel free to add more (assuming you have editing rights, I think you need to request them). It also does a lot to illuminate a key era in Muscogui and Cherokee history, something that's still badly needed. And if I'm not mistaken, it's the first proper municipal history in this entire project, so that's also a wonderful thing.

So I'll just comment some small details.

Originally the eastern edge of the Muscogi historic homeland, the areas of future Peachtree Metropolitan Area and the Ocmulgee River basin had been relatively depopulated by the 1750s - the time when Carolinians first settled there in any significant numbers. Despite the decline of the original population, the Muscogi people still fiercely considered the region an intrinsic part of their homeland [1].
[1] Most importantly of which was the Ocmulgee Burial Mounds, a Muscogi religious site built by a predecessor people.

This is a really important point. The Ocmulgee region is probably one of the few core lands to be lost by one of the southern nation-states. But as you say, it was depopulated relatively early. Put this in the context of Muscoguia's other losses during that period, and it stands out as a pretty dim chapter of its history.

And just to put it out there, I've been using this 1806 map by John Cary as kind of a baseline for thinking about the four inland nations and how they evolved into states. It's not exactly perfect, since history had obviously diverged quite a lot by 1806, but I think it's still a really important source. I don't know of any other place where the major villages are mapped in such detail.

As with the rest of the Florida Wars, fighting between the three states would come to an end in 1819 with the negotiation of the “Southern Settlement” – the set of accords that was meant to permanently establish the borders between the many warring states.

Minor clarification here, I've used the term "Southern Settlement" to refer to the entire new order that emerged in the first decades of the 1800s, not any single treaty. That would include recognizing the independence of Watauga, permanent peace among the inland nations, and the general change in mindset that led the White states that surrounded them to stop jockeying for advantage. I don't think that really changes much about your text, though.

It was in the beginning of the 1830s the Carolinian government believed it found a way around these two chokeholds on trade. It was decided that a rail hub out west would be built. Said rail hub would encourage the development of a Carolinian-friendly trade route through the states of Cherokee, Upper Virginia, Ohio, etc. and bring the wealth of the Great Lakes down to Carolina and to its major ports – without ever having to deal with those pesky Louisianans, New Netherlanders, etc. When land surveyors were sent in the early 1830s to find what part of Western Carolina would best help serve as a future deliverer of wealth, it was sheepishly suggested that the best place was actually across the border in the territory that the Cherokee took from the Muscogi.

This might be a good time to share this unfinished map. I'm trying to plot major towns onto Gian's 8k-BAM, starting with areas that haven't been mapped in detail elsewhere. Here I'm also including the likely road and rail routes that intersect at Peachtree.

With the still great deal of Carolinian influence in Cherokee, securing the land that would become Peachtree was relatively easy. It was making the purchase look respectable in the eyes of the other states that was the hard part. What would follow was a series of backroom meetings, bribes, arm-twisting, and a splashy PR campaign by the Carolinian government [1]. [1] Historians in the modern ASB are in near universal agreement that the abuse of power by Carolina and the controversy it caused among the Cherokee helped to accelerate Cherokee leaving Carolina’s sphere of influence. “How fast though?” is still a matter of debate.

This also very nicely fills a gap in the history, thanks very much.

From 1839 to 1842, the settlement built at the heart of Carolina’s rail project was initially known under the name of Terminus. In 1842 though, the locals chose to rename the settlement after the previous Carolinian Premier George M. Troup in honor of negotiating the East Chattahoochee Purchase. Said name change was quickly followed by another that renamed the city Caldwell in honor of the then current Premier John C. Caldwell. What would then follow is a decade long series of name changes done in the honor of various Carolinian Politicians, Carolinian Entrepreneurs, and members of the English Royal Family. By 1852 when the settlement had become mildly infamous in the state for its indecisiveness about its name, the name Peachtree was chosen a final innocuous compromise [3][4].


[3] The name Atlanta comes from the proposed name “Atlantica-Pacifica.” Now in a scenario where the ASB or any alt-USA or equivalent lacks a Pacific focused sense of Manifest Destiny, one’s highly unlikely to name a city Pacifica. So that throws out that way of getting an “Atlanta.” Now whether if it’s completely implausible (especially if one does a connect X to the Atlantic rail deal) to name an inland city Atlanta. It just might be too convergent for one’s taste.

[4] Now something important that should be acknowledge is the racial implications of the words “Peachtree,” “Georgia Peach,” and the Peach as a southern symbol in general as addressed in this article here. While the Peach ITTL could still potentially mirror its OTL symbolism with perhaps a post-Emancipation/post-Monarchy “New Carolina” narrative replacing OTL’s “New South” narrative, at least in regards to naming the ASB’s version of Atlanta, the name Peachtree is truly meant to be innocuous.

Now while I do remember picking (heh) the name Peachtree, I have no memory of how or why. I want to say that it came from some kind of research, but I can't remember any of the details. If you think a different name would be more realistic given the time period, let's go ahead and make that change. Also I had no knowledge about the racial and social baggage that had accumulated around the peach. Learning about that just sent me down a rabbit hole of articles about the associations around various pieces of fruit. Again, if it's a bad name in your opinion, go with a better one.

 

[Kevin R.]

I agree that the movement was heavily Protestant in OTL and most likely in TTL as well... though there too it might be worth exploring. There doesn't seem to be anything inherent in Catholicism that would stop its adherents from wanting to do something about alcohol abuse, but the movement as it developed drew heavily on themes from certain branches of Protestantism. Pietists, Puritans, and Evangelicals emphasized seeking evidence of God at work through your life; Catholics (and some Protestants, namely my own Lutheran ancestors) lacked that emphasis. There's a reason the German Catholics and Lutherans saw little reason to feel guilty about their beer. Catholic temperance organizations certainly existed and still exist, but they have never had the reach that the Evangelical Protestant groups had.

As for Indian states, I think that the problem certainly existed in some areas. Cherokee seems a likely place where alcohol abuse spread along with eastern imports. Chicasaw and Muscoguia stayed a bit more aloof from White society.

The Catholic temperance movement could wind up focusing more on immediate bread-and-butter concerns about crime, delinquency, and domestic abuse rather than moral reform. Instead of making a spiritual case against alcohol, like the Protestants did, the Catholics would focus on the physical harm done to communities by alcohol abuse. There was a Catholic temperance movement in OTL, so you could draw on that. You could also look to OTL's American gun control movement, or Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

 

[Tsochar]

Now while I do remember picking (heh) the name Peachtree, I have no memory of how or why. I want to say that it came from some kind of research, but I can't remember any of the details. If you think a different name would be more realistic given the time period, let's go ahead and make that change. Also I had no knowledge about the racial and social baggage that had accumulated around the peach. Learning about that just sent me down a rabbit hole of articles about the associations around various pieces of fruit. Again, if it's a bad name in your opinion, go with a better one.

When I was in Atlanta visiting Georgia Tech all those years ago, I remember my dad getting increasingly angry trying to navigate, in particular when he shouted "WHY IS EVERY STREET NAMED PEACHTREE?!?!?"

 

[False Dmitri]

This mention of suburbs makes me think. In OTL, the USA built highways using federal money to enable people to live in the suburbs and work in the cities if they could afford it. They also bulldozed lower-income neighborhoods to make convenient expressway ramps to make it easier for people living outside the city center, which of course led to overcrowding, crime, and the general blight that is only slowly being reversed.

In the ASB, we've already established that there's nothing like this, and only a few roads are maintained by the Confederation as a whole. In the first place, the petroleum-rich areas that made gasoline so affordable in the OTL US just aren't there. As a result, the uniquely American environment where the neighborhoods get wealthier the further away you get from the city center wouldn't develop, except maybe in a few cities.

Definitely. The usual pattern is a wealthy city center and very poor outlying areas. Also besides the gasoline and car culture, the concept of "poor inner city" has a strong racial component that is different in the ASB. Rural life is also more strongly associated with poverty there, too, except maybe in New England and the Mid-Atlantic.

I think it's probably likely that each state will have different urban planning policies that influence city development.

In general, growth in the ASB was slower and less planned than in the US. Here we built a kind of ideology of growth right after the Revolution and pretty much never looked back. The continent-spanning survey grid was devised as a way to transfer land from the Indians to the federal government to homesteaders as quickly as possible, and this grid profoundly influenced both rural settlement and the layout of cities. In the ASB, expect a lot more cities to follow the Bostonian pattern of slower, organic growth. A few cities were built more according to a plan, especially in areas that were annexed by White settler states in an OTL-like fashion. Peachtree/Atlanta was clearly planned intentionally and built quickly, like many American cities that we know. Same with many of the cities of Upper Virginia and Upper Connecticut.

Many large cities in Latin America rely on mass transit systems because the average citizen wasn't able to afford personal transportation; even though cars are more affordable now, a majority of commuters in large cities still use rapid transit. Similar patterns occurred in Asian cities, where large populations and low auto ownership made mass transit more effective tools for industrialization. In Europe, the dense existing developments made the kind of suburbanization that the US implemented less attractive, and they implemented rapid transit systems as well. Most of these places also have more well-defined ring road systems; Beijing has 6, for example.

You've already written a fair bit about car-based travel culture; given that cares are likely less prevalent and less important to the ASB, how do you think that would attract travel?

We might have the same discriminatory policies in Carolina and other areas with sordid racial histories that lead to racial ghettoes and concentrations of crime rates. When we consider that Spain's encomienda system caused massive societal stratification that most of Latin America hasn't been able to overcome, we might also expect discrimination in those states as well.

Yes, only that the image of the "crime-ridden inner city" is likely to be replaced by "crime-ridden suburbs" in many metro areas.

Similarly, OTL Caribbean countries still have very high crime rates due to their history of exploitation, and I think the ASB would still inherit that. In addition, the influx of tourism money juxtaposed against the lower income level of the islands has created many opportunities for crime.

I would think so. And while the east-west divide in Dominica is much, much less extreme than it is in OTL (since Haiti did not spend decades as an absolute pariah, instead staying connected to the community of Francophone states)... the divide still exists, and West Dominica is known as a poor state with a lot of social problems.

Question for later: Does the ASB have a drug problem? What are the biggest offenders? Where do the drugs come from? Who uses them? Which areas are hardest-hit?

Everyone has a drug problem, so the question is how drug use would evolve. It hasn't occurred to me before to think about how weed would be viewed in TTL. Is there any chance that it's acceptable, or variable by state?

We again return to immigration. The problem with establishing patterns of immigration is that it's heavily dependent on the history of foreign countries, which haven't been well-developed. Complicating the issue, there are ethnic groups that exist in OTL that won't exist here, and ethnic groups here that won't exist in OTL.

A few things are starting to come together. But yeah, key questions like "What's the deal with the Balkans" and "What's the deal with India" are still unexplored and have a lot of bearing on immigration to America.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

I have to say, this world is really interesting! I find the ASB fascinating, what with it retaining Native American culture as well as multiple European ones. Since I’m new to the thread, I have a few questions.

Firstly, what’s African American culture like in the ASB? There don’t seem to be any specifically African-descended states, so I was just wondering how some of the unique African American cultures that developed OTL are doing.

For a similar question, this is outside the ASB, but is there still any sort of Indo-Caribbean culture like in OTL from Indian migrants to Guyana, Suriname, etc.? If so, how’s it holding up?

While talking about the Caribbean, this is more of a suggestion than a question, but have you considered including the Miskito Kingdom? It seems like something that would fit right in to the rest of the world that’s being developed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_Coast

Finally, this is mostly just because I’m from Kentucky, but is there any reason why Lexington seems to have been renamed to Brynston other than simply butterflies?

 

[False Dmitri]

I have to say, this world is really interesting! I find the ASB fascinating, what with it retaining Native American culture as well as multiple European ones. Since I’m new to the thread, I have a few questions.

Firstly, what’s African American culture like in the ASB? There don’t seem to be any specifically African-descended states, so I was just wondering how some of the unique African American cultures that developed OTL are doing.

Well West Dominica (our Haiti) is solidly Black. And all the other Caribbean island states are either majority Black or nearly so. A typical citizen of Lower Louisiana is of mixed White and Black ancestry, and Seminol sees its African heritage as an essential ingredient of its culture. But if by African American you mean "Mainland English-Speaking Black," then no, there is no one state where they form a majority or where they dominate the culture.

Now that group in TTL is called the Black English and to some extent, they can be considered together with other English ethnic groups. But of course their history of enslavement and discrimination sets them apart. Emancipation came differently and at different times throughout the ASB, and some form of gradual emancipation was more common than the sudden burst we had in the United States. Carolina is a prominent exception - emancipation there came all at once, in a climate of violent unrest, under intense pressure from both the confederal government and the English Crown. (Carolina was a loyalist state until about 1900, and it abolished the monarchy largely because racist voters were still resentful that the Crown had opposed slavery.) So Carolina is the state where the pattern of race relations is closest to the United States of OTL.

A form of the Great Migration happened in TTL, but it was not simply a case of the Black English heading north. There was opportunity in several directions: New Orleans, Havana, and the capitals of the Indian states were less racially restrictive than Lower Virginia and Carolina in the early 20th century. All those cities have prominent Black English communities to this day.

Now if by culture you mean things like music and art, there's still a lot to explore. A single national pop culture developed much later than in OTL and to some extent still doesn't totally exist, with distinct Spanish, French, and English speaking media landscapes. Instead, imagine music styles developing from the creative blending and interaction of distinct folk music customs in each state. I've written that Carolina folk music, both White and Black, became popular in the earlier 20th century and made an impact on the ASB's music scene. I think I wrote that more or less with the Carolina Chocolate Drops in mind, but that's far from the full spectrum of Black English-derived music in TTL. I expect quite a lot more Caribbean influence, since several islands are part of the Confederation.

For a similar question, this is outside the ASB, but is there still any sort of Indo-Caribbean culture like in OTL from Indian migrants to Guyana, Suriname, etc.? If so, how’s it holding up?

We know that the British Empire was far weaker in TTL, so a unified British India sending laborers around the globe certainly didn't happen. But that said, India is still a blank in need of great ideas.

While talking about the Caribbean, this is more of a suggestion than a question, but have you considered including the Miskito Kingdom? It seems like something that would fit right in to the rest of the world that’s being developed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_Coast

Yeah, I don't think we talked about it. It's not on any of the maps I've made of Central America, maybe just because I feel like it appears in so many places. But I don't know. I did imagine Valiz (Belize) as a state built by the English logwood-cutters and sometime-pirates, rather than a proper English colony as such. Maybe the Miskito would fit in well? I don't know.

Finally, this is mostly just because I’m from Kentucky, but is there any reason why Lexington seems to have been renamed to Brynston other than simply butterflies?

Even post-revolutionary Anglo-Americans in this timeline were not in the habit of celebrating the battles and heroes of other states. Whether or not a battle occurred in Lexington, Massachusetts, there was nobody in Virginia inclined to name a town after it. Massachusetts was a separate, allied republic and the Virginians had their own traditions to honor. Brynston comes from Bryan's Station, a very early name for Lexington, Kentucky.

 

[Venusian Si]

So thanks very much for this. It's a great read and it manages to perfectly take the general ideas you posted earlier and expand on them in an interesting way. It gels exactly with established content. I've gone ahead and added dates to the timeline on the Wiki. Feel free to add more (assuming you have editing rights, I think you need to request them). It also does a lot to illuminate a key era in Muscogui and Cherokee history, something that's still badly needed.

I'm honestly so glad that you approve! I definitely tried my best to integrate my ideas with what you've already wrote across the different states' histories. As for the Wiki, I don't since I've never personally used it, but I'll definitely look into that.
​

And if I'm not mistaken, it's the first proper municipal history in this entire project, so that's also a wonderful thing.

Oh Awesome! Here's hoping for more down the line.

This is a really important point. The Ocmulgee region is probably one of the few core lands to be lost by one of the southern nation-states. But as you say, it was depopulated relatively early. Put this in the context of Muscoguia's other losses during that period, and it stands out as a pretty dim chapter of its history.

Yeah...It's definitely something I'd imagine chilling Moscogi-Carolinian relations and having a blowback in Moscoquia's politics for a lot of the 19th Century.

And just to put it out there, I've been using this 1806 map by John Cary as kind of a baseline for thinking about the four inland nations and how they evolved into states. It's not exactly perfect, since history had obviously diverged quite a lot by 1806, but I think it's still a really important source. I don't know of any other place where the major villages are mapped in such detail.

Oh very cool find!

Minor clarification here, I've used the term "Southern Settlement" to refer to the entire new order that emerged in the first decades of the 1800s, not any single treaty. That would include recognizing the independence of Watauga, permanent peace among the inland nations, and the general change in mindset that led the White states that surrounded them to stop jockeying for advantage. I don't think that really changes much about your text, though.

Ah. Gotcha. I was assuming that it was a nickname for the treaty that ended the Florida/Ocmulgee Wars. Your explanation definitely clears things up.

Since the History for West Florida mentions the Grand Council's involvement for negotiating the end of the conflict, would it be fair to say that the actual treaty's name would be something like "The (1819) Treaty of Philadelphia?"

This might be a good time to share this unfinished map. I'm trying to plot major towns onto Gian's 8k-BAM, starting with areas that haven't been mapped in detail elsewhere. Here I'm also including the likely road and rail routes that intersect at Peachtree.

Awesome Map as always - definitely can't wait to see the finished project down the road. Some questions though.

I'm assuming the two roads shown are new Confederal Highways? Do they have any names/backgrounds yet? Also, is the city of Catawba roughly were Charlotte, NC is? Any thoughts what the city of Catawba is like or any thoughts on the Catawba people that hasn't already been posted elsewhere on the thread?

This also very nicely fills a gap in the history, thanks very much.

Glad you approve!

Now while I do remember picking (heh) the name Peachtree, I have no memory of how or why. I want to say that it came from some kind of research, but I can't remember any of the details. If you think a different name would be more realistic given the time period, let's go ahead and make that change.

If I was to hazard a guess, I would say that you probably ran across information about Standing Peachtree sometime in your research. Looking back at what I wrote, I realize that it comes off as implying that Peachtree is a purely post-ACW phenomena when it certainly wasn't. I definitely should have added some of the history for SP to my post (and will do so in a re-edit).

So yeah, apologies if it came across as saying that Peachtree is a bad/ahistorical name! It certainly isn't - just an oversight on my part. Now admittedly, I suppose one could argue that White Carolinians might not want to use even an English (possibly mis-) translation of a settlement of their former enemy as the name for their city. But the name's both generic and pretty enough that it could still be a reasonable choice.

Otherwise, the most likely names based on both OTL/ITTL History is either some Carolinian Politician (which meh), being named after a member of the royal family like OTL Augusta, GA or Charlotte, NC (if you want to troll the people of Atlanta, you could always use Charlotte), or potentially some Antiquity era callback since a lot of cities in the Southeast have names like Athens, Rome, etc.

And of course, if you ever want to engage in pure absurdist dramatic irony, you could always name the city Pacifica and call it a day. Haha.

But yeah, Peachtree is definitely a good choice.

Also I had no knowledge about the racial and social baggage that had accumulated around the peach.

Honestly, I would say that that would apply to most people - even people in the South who should know. It's the sort of thing you would never be taught unless you went out of your way to learn about it.

It's also really fascinating how fast the Peach became an intrinsic Southern Symbol - to the point that many people have spent their whole lives unaware of the late 19th/early 20th Century connotations and have never bothered to question why this random fruit is such a popular symbol.

This is also why I wanted to include the explanation I did in note 4. Even though the origins of the name "Peachtree" are truly innocuous and actually unrelated, it's easy for it with an OTL context to invoke the peach as a Southern symbol, and of course within OTL, that symbol's origins is decidedly less innocuous. Ultimately though, I just figured that while symbols like the Peach can definitely still be used and enjoyed in the modern day, the full history of it should be acknowledge and not swept under the rug.

Learning about that just sent me down a rabbit hole of articles about the associations around various pieces of fruit.

Ha! I'm actually both curious and afraid of what you might have found.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

We know that the British Empire was far weaker in TTL, so a unified British India sending laborers around the globe certainly didn't happen. But that said, India is still a blank in need of great ideas.

Hmm... have you considered having a surviving Mughal Empire? I feel that they'd fit in pretty well in the setting, primarily in regards to their stances on religious toleration. India's already a pretty diverse country, so I'm not sure how to really make it even more diverse.

Also, if you do decide to have a surviving Mughal Empire, something interesting to note would be the fact that there was actually a branch of the House of Bourbon that served under the Mughals. They could definitely be interesting to include in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbons_of_India

Though on the topic of the Mughals, I am curious; how is monarchy holding up in this world in general? I know Russia/Sweden/Poland are all in a personal union, and I know that some of the Boreoamerican states are monarchies, but are there any other prominent monarchies in this TL?

 

[Griffin04]

Hey, first time poster but longtime lurker on this thread (and big fan!).

I came across this performance, which recounts the Anti-Rent War of 1840s upstate New York from a contemporary left-anarchist perspective. I was wondering if an event like this occurred in the history of TTL's New Netherland, and if so then if its legacy became a touchstone for later struggles against the patroon class, which if i recall correctly remained influential in New Netherland into the 20th century. Perhaps (as with the song) it could also be extended to other types of landlordism and become a rallying cry for tenant's-rights, socialist, anarchist etc. demonstrations.

Just some thoughts!

 

[Tsochar]

Hmm... have you considered having a surviving Mughal Empire? I feel that they'd fit in pretty well in the setting, primarily in regards to their stances on religious toleration. India's already a pretty diverse country, so I'm not sure how to really make it even more diverse.

Also, if you do decide to have a surviving Mughal Empire, something interesting to note would be the fact that there was actually a branch of the House of Bourbon that served under the Mughals. They could definitely be interesting to include in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbons_of_India

Though on the topic of the Mughals, I am curious; how is monarchy holding up in this world in general? I know Russia/Sweden/Poland are all in a personal union, and I know that some of the Boreoamerican states are monarchies, but are there any other prominent monarchies in this TL?

IIRC, nothing has been done in India. India and North America both were contested by many European powers, but Britain ultimately won both contests. In the ASB-verse, North America was a tie, so I would expect India to end up more or less a tie as well. The question is, a tie between whom?
I think we can characterize the evolution of colonialism in the ASB-verse as follows: Colonization was not as complete as it was in OTL, and therefore decolonization was also not as complete as it was in OTL. The ASB is a confederation of colonies and kingdoms founded by many European and Native groups, so we might expect ASB-verse India to be a confederation of Indian princely states and European trading settlements. For example:

A Portuguese state, centered in Goa and including Bombay/Mumbai,
Three or four Dutch states, centered in Malabar/Kerala, Surat/Gujarat, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, and northern Coromandel/Andhra Pradesh,
A British state, most likely part of Bengal, possibly Orissa as well.
A French state, centered in southern Coromandel/Tamil Nadu,
Danish Nicobar Islands,
A small Austrian state somewhere,
The rest of them would be various Indian states, either Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, or what have you.

In OTL, there were 565 Princely States in the British Raj, most of them tiny, and these made up something like a quarter of the subcontinent's population. I think, realistically, the number of purely Indian-led states in an ASB-verse India would probably cover 80-95% of the subcontinent population. This would mean, surely, the major Indian empires that were dismantled during Britain's conquest of the subcontinent would likely stick around in some shape or form. The Maratha, the main nemesis of the British in the late 18th century, was already a confederacy made out of many constituent states; at the same time, the Mughal Empire was dissolving into quasi-independent statelets with varying loyalty to the Emperor. Between these two states, I think we might have India be a "confederation of confederations," where the various minor statelets and larger empires banded together, successfully this time, into medium-sized confederations to prevent Europeans from encroaching too far, and eventually coalesced into an ASB or PIC-like super-confederation. Such a superstate would probably have a different configuration of how states work than the ASB; while the ASB has 51 states with roughly equal rights in various sizes, this Indian super-confederation would probably have many more states with different rights and privileges for each one, depending on which sub-confederation it belongs to and how rich it is.

For example, Suppose we have a Hyderabad-like state be a full-fledged, wealthy state with the ability to make its own laws and govern itself. We also have a Maratha-like state that can make its own laws and govern itself, but the Maratha-like state is not a single entity but a collection thereof, and the constituent states have varying levels of autonomy relative to the whole: Baroda might be the largest and richest Maratha sub-state, and it might have autonomy and rights on par with Hyderabad despite being nominally a part of a larger state. Then we might have a Sikkim-like state, which is not politically subordinated to any state, but which is small and poor and therefore has some extra restrictions on which laws it may and may not pass; therefore it would be smaller, less important, and less autonomous than Baroda, but it would still be a full-fledged state while Baroda would be considered a subsidiary. Then we might have the actual Mughal rump state, the leader of which is ex oficio the head of state of the super-confederation, but the Emperor himself is limited both by the confederal-level legislature and by the fully republican Union of Provinces in Agra and Oudh, sort of like how OTL Washington DC is the capital but isn't a state.

The end result of this system would be less like a well-organized "How is the Government structured?" flowchart and more like a conspiracy theorist's push-pin wall with random bits of string everywhere and sticky notes with hastily-scribbled questions like "Why is the Bourbon King of France-in-India so important????" or "Is the Governor-General of English Bengal allowed to sit in his reserved seat?" or "Why is the Merchant Marine independent of the rest of the military?"

 

[False Dmitri]

I'm honestly so glad that you approve! I definitely tried my best to integrate my ideas with what you've already wrote across the different states' histories. As for the Wiki, I don't since I've never personally used it, but I'll definitely look into that.​

I think you have to actually ask Ian, per this message.
​

Since the History for West Florida mentions the Grand Council's involvement for negotiating the end of the conflict, would it be fair to say that the actual treaty's name would be something like "The (1819) Treaty of Philadelphia?"

Yes, perfectly logical.

I'm assuming the two roads shown are new Confederal Highways? Do they have any names/backgrounds yet? Also, is the city of Catawba roughly were Charlotte, NC is? Any thoughts what the city of Catawba is like or any thoughts on the Catawba people that hasn't already been posted elsewhere on the thread?

So that's actually the historical center of the Catawba nation, as true in TTL as in OTL. It's slightly south of our Charlotte and just across the state line - the modern town is Rock Hill, SC.

Tracing the development of the city and of the Catawba people really means understanding the pattern of how English settlements developed in a world with a lower English population and slower growth. In our timeline, the Catawba were decimated by the 1720s or so, their importance as a regional force being prolonged simply because the English needed allies. In this timeline they were also battered by diseases, but the slow pace of White settlement allowed them to recover somewhat. Some of the Piedmonter pioneers settled among them during this time, leading to intermarriage and cross-acculturation. So by the later 1700s, a great many Catawba had White ancestry and family connections to non-Catawba Carolina society.

From there, the Catawba nation gradually merged into the Carolina polity. This is one aspect of the ASB where you can see that it's not as simple as saying "Indians strong". The tribe as such has no government or infrastructure anymore. Instead, the Catawba people came to participate in Carolina on basically their own terms. Their villages kept their land and the people became equal to other citizens. Holders of hereditary chieftainships were integrated into the state system of aristocracy (generally given the lower rank of cazique). This process of merging happened in stages, not all at once. During the war in the first decade of the 1800s, the Catawba were still distinct enough that they sent men to fight alongside Carolina, rather than simply being part of the state militia. Treaty provisions like gifts in exchange for military service were replaced by normal taxation and subsidies, and subsidies to assist poor Catawba villages still exist as part of the state's regular systems of welfare spending and rural assistance.

As for the main Catawba town, it had a separate traditional name, but was generally known as "Catawba Town" by the late 18th century. It became a natural hub for trade in the backcountry, so it rather than Charlotte would have grown as a road and then a rail crossing. I'd think it's not quite as big as OTL Charlotte, but it's definitely an important city for that immediate region. Industrialization and urbanization of course brought many non-Catawba people there, so nowadays you'd call it a city with a Catawba heritage surrounded by a largely Catawba region, rather than a Catawba city as such. It's officially bilingual, but English is the majority. And of course the academy of the Catawba language, as well as other cultural institutions, keep the heritage alive. All citizens of the city feel some connection to that heritage, even if their physical ancestry might be different.

If I was to hazard a guess, I would say that you probably ran across information about Standing Peachtree sometime in your research. Looking back at what I wrote, I realize that it comes off as implying that Peachtree is a purely post-ACW phenomena when it certainly wasn't. I definitely should have added some of the history for SP to my post (and will do so in a re-edit).

So yeah, apologies if it came across as saying that Peachtree is a bad/ahistorical name! It certainly isn't - just an oversight on my part. Now admittedly, I suppose one could argue that White Carolinians might not want to use even an English (possibly mis-) translation of a settlement of their former enemy as the name for their city. But the name's both generic and pretty enough that it could still be a reasonable choice.

Otherwise, the most likely names based on both OTL/ITTL History is either some Carolinian Politician (which meh), being named after a member of the royal family like OTL Augusta, GA or Charlotte, NC (if you want to troll the people of Atlanta, you could always use Charlotte), or potentially some Antiquity era callback since a lot of cities in the Southeast have names like Athens, Rome, etc.

And of course, if you ever want to engage in pure absurdist dramatic irony, you could always name the city Pacifica and call it a day. Haha.

But yeah, Peachtree is definitely a good choice.

OK, thanks for clarifying. In that case I'm sure it's based on the river and the historical village - the usual case for towns in the ASB. Most major towns grew slowly and organically from what had come before. So even if a certain town is no longer indigenous in any way, there was no historic break where it ceased to be Indian and became colonized. Of course in Peachtree's case there was such a break, but keeping a translation of the indigenous name is still a very normal thing to do in TTL, and it helps that it sounds pretty.

Honestly, I would say that that would apply to most people - even people in the South who should know. It's the sort of thing you would never be taught unless you went out of your way to learn about it.

It's also really fascinating how fast the Peach became an intrinsic Southern Symbol - to the point that many people have spent their whole lives unaware of the late 19th/early 20th Century connotations and have never bothered to question why this random fruit is such a popular symbol.

This is also why I wanted to include the explanation I did in note 4. Even though the origins of the name "Peachtree" are truly innocuous and actually unrelated, it's easy for it with an OTL context to invoke the peach as a Southern symbol, and of course within OTL, that symbol's origins is decidedly less innocuous. Ultimately though, I just figured that while symbols like the Peach can definitely still be used and enjoyed in the modern day, the full history of it should be acknowledge and not swept under the rug.

Ha! I'm actually both curious and afraid of what you might have found.

Oh, you know. Peaches led straight to watermelons, and then apples. I guess really just those three, but it added up to a lot of reading.

 

[False Dmitri]

IIRC, nothing has been done in India. India and North America both were contested by many European powers, but Britain ultimately won both contests. In the ASB-verse, North America was a tie, so I would expect India to end up more or less a tie as well. The question is, a tie between whom?
I think we can characterize the evolution of colonialism in the ASB-verse as follows: Colonization was not as complete as it was in OTL, and therefore decolonization was also not as complete as it was in OTL. The ASB is a confederation of colonies and kingdoms founded by many European and Native groups, so we might expect ASB-verse India to be a confederation of Indian princely states and European trading settlements. For example:

A Portuguese state, centered in Goa and including Bombay/Mumbai,
Three or four Dutch states, centered in Malabar/Kerala, Surat/Gujarat, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, and northern Coromandel/Andhra Pradesh,
A British state, most likely part of Bengal, possibly Orissa as well.
A French state, centered in southern Coromandel/Tamil Nadu,
Danish Nicobar Islands,
A small Austrian state somewhere,
The rest of them would be various Indian states, either Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, or what have you.

In OTL, there were 565 Princely States in the British Raj, most of them tiny, and these made up something like a quarter of the subcontinent's population. I think, realistically, the number of purely Indian-led states in an ASB-verse India would probably cover 80-95% of the subcontinent population. This would mean, surely, the major Indian empires that were dismantled during Britain's conquest of the subcontinent would likely stick around in some shape or form. The Maratha, the main nemesis of the British in the late 18th century, was already a confederacy made out of many constituent states; at the same time, the Mughal Empire was dissolving into quasi-independent statelets with varying loyalty to the Emperor. Between these two states, I think we might have India be a "confederation of confederations," where the various minor statelets and larger empires banded together, successfully this time, into medium-sized confederations to prevent Europeans from encroaching too far, and eventually coalesced into an ASB or PIC-like super-confederation. Such a superstate would probably have a different configuration of how states work than the ASB; while the ASB has 51 states with roughly equal rights in various sizes, this Indian super-confederation would probably have many more states with different rights and privileges for each one, depending on which sub-confederation it belongs to and how rich it is.

For example, Suppose we have a Hyderabad-like state be a full-fledged, wealthy state with the ability to make its own laws and govern itself. We also have a Maratha-like state that can make its own laws and govern itself, but the Maratha-like state is not a single entity but a collection thereof, and the constituent states have varying levels of autonomy relative to the whole: Baroda might be the largest and richest Maratha sub-state, and it might have autonomy and rights on par with Hyderabad despite being nominally a part of a larger state. Then we might have a Sikkim-like state, which is not politically subordinated to any state, but which is small and poor and therefore has some extra restrictions on which laws it may and may not pass; therefore it would be smaller, less important, and less autonomous than Baroda, but it would still be a full-fledged state while Baroda would be considered a subsidiary. Then we might have the actual Mughal rump state, the leader of which is ex oficio the head of state of the super-confederation, but the Emperor himself is limited both by the confederal-level legislature and by the fully republican Union of Provinces in Agra and Oudh, sort of like how OTL Washington DC is the capital but isn't a state.

The end result of this system would be less like a well-organized "How is the Government structured?" flowchart and more like a conspiracy theorist's push-pin wall with random bits of string everywhere and sticky notes with hastily-scribbled questions like "Why is the Bourbon King of France-in-India so important????" or "Is the Governor-General of English Bengal allowed to sit in his reserved seat?" or "Why is the Merchant Marine independent of the rest of the military?"

So this is starting to sound like an Idea. And it's one that makes a lot of sense, too. The map of India has very rarely been not in total flux, all the time - even the relative stability of the Princely States during the Raj era was an anomaly, to say nothing of the stability of the generations since Independence. Something that taps into that would make sense within this setting.

 

[False Dmitri]

Though on the topic of the Mughals, I am curious; how is monarchy holding up in this world in general? I know Russia/Sweden/Poland are all in a personal union, and I know that some of the Boreoamerican states are monarchies, but are there any other prominent monarchies in this TL?

Well given the prominence of the Russia-centered imperial monarchy, there's definitely a lot to that. But I've wanted to avoid a trope where there are monarchs just everywhere for no reason but that we like them. Some areas that are monarchies in OTL, notably Canada, Scotland, and the Netherlands, are republics in TTL. So while a larger percentage of the world's population than OTL might live under monarchies, they're not universal by any means.