Adam Tooze doesn't know airplanes.

Adam Tooze doesn't know anything about airplanes.

"Over the winter of 1940-41, the difficulties getting the Bf-109E, or 'Emil', into production accounted for the sharp dip in aircraft production..."

"The He-177 was a disaster.....its peculiar back-to-back engine configuration resulted in frequent self-combustion."
Same page, #448.

He seems obsessed with Junkers, or maybe they just had the most archives.

On the plus side, I have learned the importance of imported feed grain in steel production.
 
Does no one wish to defend the oft-quoted economist? I did find that he had a well-honed talent for the delivery of a flood of statistical rhetoric, which required me to dust off some ill-used literacy skills. Maybe, it's just me.
 
"The He-177 was a disaster.....its peculiar back-to-back engine configuration resulted in frequent self-combustion."
Same page, #448.

Not having read the original source, it may not matter if the author is discussing economics and doesn't know anything about airplanes. Regarding the He 177, I have read statements in books specifically about airplanes that indicate the authors never bothered to learn that the engines in each nacelle were paired side-to-side rather than in tandem. He does accurately decribe the Greif as a disaster and attributes this to the engine configuration...that may be good enough although sloppy.
 
Thank you for responding, Zoomar.

P. 577: Between early 1942 and early 1943, the monthly output of aircraft more than doubled. ..This increase in output took place with a much smaller increase in labour force and no increase whatsoever in the allocation of raw aluminium.

Tooze doesn't elaborate on the methods used to build twice the aircraft out of the same aluminium. Did they rationalize, build aircraft out of leftover lathe swirls, or just build smaller airplanes in greater quantity? Guess.

P. 582: As it turned out, the He 111, along with the Luftwaffe's other twin-engined aircraft such as the Me 110 and 210/410, gained a new lease on life after 1942 in a defensive role, as night fighters in the battle against the RAF.

Really?

P. 584: A half-page tirade on the Me 109G ending with"For thousands of Luftwaffe fliers who squeezed themselves into their cramped cockpits Milch's mass-produced Messerschmitts became little more than death traps."

Somewhere, Tooze segued from Bf to Me. He probably didn't realize that those Bf/Mes added major numbers to production volume, or that a substantial number of Luftwaffe expertes continued to deke allied pilots out of their shorts in this machine, or that the training establishment, not part of an economics treatise, had failed to train new pilots in the survival business.

The book is going back to the library shortly. Thanks for all your input.
 
I will defend Tooze by saying there is a lot of economic history I didn't really understand until that book and it made me realize the impact of balance of trade on the countries. It was the early chapters about Streseman and the build up to WWII that made the book for me.

Heck when I read recently that airlines and travel agents in Venezuela are shutting down business due to the lack of foreign currency, I thanked Tooze. Not like Venezuela is going to start a blitzkrieg any time soon but it's interesting to understand that a economy in slipping into free fall is following an analogous economic path as Germany.
 
So far as I can say and recall the production of fighters was, generally, never a huge problem, though I think it can be said the Bomber Offensive wasn't a big help either :eek: That being said, there's an eternal debate as to the real efficacy of the overall offensive, which, is in any case another thread altogether, so we won't derail this one with that :p

However, the trainers and experienced fighter cadres of the Luftwaffe were being frittered away over the course of the war, conversely once the Allied pilots became proficient and experienced, tended to be roto'd back home to train the NFG's since they could relativly afford to do so.

And, of course you have the undeniable industrial potential of North America that put Germany to shame in terms of output. :cool:

Not much really to add aside from that, just my 2 cents :)
 
Tooze doesn't elaborate on the methods used to build twice the aircraft out of the same aluminium. Did they rationalize, build aircraft out of leftover lathe swirls, or just build smaller airplanes in greater quantity? Guess.
Did you miss the quote on pp.579-580?

"Milch began to promote an agenda of rationalisation, in the sense of optimising manufacturing efficiency... theirs was the mantra of 'more for less'. Werner, in particular, introduced himself in 1941 with a series of devastating reports on the antediluvian metalworking practices commonplace in aero-engine production. He was particularly incensed by the wastage of raw materials resulting from the application of traditional metal-cutting techniques. As he put it in a much-quoted report, the German aero-engine industry was producing more waste chips, by weight, than engines... What Werner was voicing was the critique developed since the early 1930s by advocates of new, state-of-the-art technologies, which replaced traditional metal-cutting tools, such as lathes, with grinding, casting, stamping and pressing, all of which were far more economical in their use of both materials and labour."

I guess the reason you're not getting much of a response is because these are pretty minor quibbles. This isn't a book about the German aeronautics industry: it's a book about the German economy. A book of almost 800 pages covering fifteen years and a world war is going to have errors. However, the fact that obsolescent aircraft were only one of the factors that led to thousands of Luftwaffe crew being shot down, or the fact that the He-177's engines caught fire because they were side to side rather than back to back, doesn't do anything to contradict Tooze's central arguments and doesn't invalidate the insights into the German economy that the book has clearly given many people here.
 
I guess the reason you're not getting much of a response is because these are pretty minor quibbles. This isn't a book about the German aeronautics industry: it's a book about the German economy. A book of almost 800 pages covering fifteen years and a world war is going to have errors. However, the fact that obsolescent aircraft were only one of the factors that led to thousands of Luftwaffe crew being shot down, or the fact that the He-177's engines caught fire because they were side to side rather than back to back, doesn't do anything to contradict Tooze's central arguments and doesn't invalidate the insights into the German economy that the book has clearly given many people here.

That was my point as well. Although I haven't read the book, what would matter to me is whether or not Tooze's broad economic figures and characterization of the German economy are accurate or justified, not if he has an accurate understanding of aircraft types or how they were used/misued.

However, in fairness to Just Leo, if a book on the general history of WW2 geopolitics and economics is packed with minor errors or gross oversimplifications regarding secondary details, it can lead one to question the quality of scholarship overall.

From what I've seen in this thread, however, none of the inaccuraces seem that critical: The He177 was a bad plane because of its engine configuration, the Bf109G was obsolescent by 1944, German twin-engined fighters and bombers (though not the He 111) did get a new lease on life as night fighters.
 
Did you miss the quote on pp.579-580?

"Milch began to promote an agenda of rationalisation, in the sense of optimising manufacturing efficiency... theirs was the mantra of 'more for less'. Werner, in particular, introduced himself in 1941 with a series of devastating reports on the antediluvian metalworking practices commonplace in aero-engine production. He was particularly incensed by the wastage of raw materials resulting from the application of traditional metal-cutting techniques. As he put it in a much-quoted report, the German aero-engine industry was producing more waste chips, by weight, than engines... What Werner was voicing was the critique developed since the early 1930s by advocates of new, state-of-the-art technologies, which replaced traditional metal-cutting tools, such as lathes, with grinding, casting, stamping and pressing, all of which were far more economical in their use of both materials and labour."

I guess the reason you're not getting much of a response is because these are pretty minor quibbles. This isn't a book about the German aeronautics industry: it's a book about the German economy. A book of almost 800 pages covering fifteen years and a world war is going to have errors. However, the fact that obsolescent aircraft were only one of the factors that led to thousands of Luftwaffe crew being shot down, or the fact that the He-177's engines caught fire because they were side to side rather than back to back, doesn't do anything to contradict Tooze's central arguments and doesn't invalidate the insights into the German economy that the book has clearly given many people here.

There might be a point in my query. I have read treatises written by many respected scholars and historians. Over the many years, I have found that I gained a body of knowledge which is at odds with some of the opinions, and supposedly factual data presented in some of these tomes. So far, I don't know everything, nor do I want to, but I have worked in an aircraft factory, DHC, and operated machine tools, and I find the concept of 50% wastage a bit of a stretch. The MG42 was much easier to make than an MG34, but it was a completely different weapon. Such economies do not seem as readily applicable to aircraft and aero-engines without severe redesign and loss of production volume, as well as requiring the manufacture of some new production machinery.

The matter of statistics itself is often misleading in itself. Numbers of aircraft produced does not differentiate between big and small, utile or crap. I have gained some insight upon reading this book, perhaps more than many other historical sagas, but it sure ain't perfect.

I have wondered. If the person who invented Tim-bits had lived in nazi Germany during the war, and doughnuts were a weapon, would he have received a medal? Tim-bits are supposedly doughnut holes, supposedly wastage. If the Germans were throwing out doughnut holes, they certainly deserved the loss.
 

Deleted member 1487

I tried to warn you about him. Everything he has written about the LW is contradicted by specialist works on the economics of LW production, because he is trying to force a broad narrative about German armaments production that doesn't work; I applaud his efforts in trying to create a broad survey of WW2 economics in Germany, but he has a very bad habit of ignoring contradictory evidence when it doesn't fit his point.

As has been said he is not a specialist in every aspect of the German economy, which leads him to make errors that undermine his point. If you want to understand the specifics of how production when up in the aviation industry "arming the Luftwaffe" by Daniel Uziel covers the period from 1942-45, which some overview of the 1939-41 period (not covered due to Richard Overy writing his thesis on that period and already covering that period in detail). "Arming the Luftwaffe" by Edward Homze gets into the pre-war period, which again undermines the points about Germany being unable to achieve more due to capacity being reached, rather than the reality of serious bureaucratic and structural issues in the aviation industry that resulted from Udet's mismanagement of the sector after Walter Wever's death and Goering's broader mismanagement of the wider economy against after Wever's death (when Goering took over the 4 year program and sidelined Erhard Milch and Hjalmar Schacht). "Daimler Benz in the Third Reich" is also pretty helpful about the engine side of things and the serious problem and mismanagement there throughout the whole war, not to mention the political intrigue that resulted in the death of Fritz Todt through a mysterious airplane explosion in mid-air after Albert Speer was warned off the flight by Goering (Goering and Todt had been feuding for control over the economy).

"Germany and the Second World War" series is very helpful at undermining Tooze's broader narrative on the economy as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_the_Second_World_War
Basically there was a lot of mismanagement and inefficiency in the German war economy due to the Führerprinzip causing massive infighting for influence that undermined production and ensured the best politician, not the most competent administrator, rose to the top of the rat pile that was the Nazi administration.

Then there is Richard Overy's "Goering: Hitler's Iron Knight" and "War and economy in the Third Reich". Overy makes the very interesting point about how much manpower was wasted in competing and overlapping bureaucracies, which was partly a function of one of the Nazi party's largest constituencies being low level government bureaucrats that lost their jobs in after 1918 and the downsizing of the German government, so within the party started forming competing bureaucracies that fought each other and the existing Weimar bureaucracy once Hitler rose to power for power within the new regime.

Basically all this adds up to cast serious doubt on Tooze's overall narrative in "Wages" (though its not completely wrong), because he is the only one making points alternate to much of the other respected literature before or since.

There might be a point in my query. I have read treatises written by many respected scholars and historians. Over the many years, I have found that I gained a body of knowledge which is at odds with some of the opinions, and supposedly factual data presented in some of these tomes. So far, I don't know everything, nor do I want to, but I have worked in an aircraft factory, DHC, and operated machine tools, and I find the concept of 50% wastage a bit of a stretch. The MG42 was much easier to make than an MG34, but it was a completely different weapon. Such economies do not seem as readily applicable to aircraft and aero-engines without severe redesign and loss of production volume, as well as requiring the manufacture of some new production machinery.

The matter of statistics itself is often misleading in itself. Numbers of aircraft produced does not differentiate between big and small, utile or crap. I have gained some insight upon reading this book, perhaps more than many other historical sagas, but it sure ain't perfect.
I'm sure part of that was fraudulent accounting, due to manufacturers being over allocated aluminum for aircraft and using the extra to make things to sell on the black market to get extra profits or rations to woo workers from other firms (though this was supposed to be illegal). Overy points out in his books that they were making tropical pre-fab barracks structures for the anticipated need after Germany would get its colonies back from Britain or were making ladders and pots and pans to be sold on the black market. I'm sure the 50% wastage was presented as the issue rather than graft, so as to avoid prosecutions and executions for industrialists who would be necessary to sort of the production problems.

Edit:
I should note that these sort of unofficial pardons were issued in the US too. American companies aiding the Nazis were given 'pardons' when the links were discovered in 1941, such as Standard Oil in cartel with IG Farben funneling money and certain patents to the Nazis even as Germany DoWed the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.G._Farben#World_War_II_overview
In 1941, an investigation exposed a "marriage" cartel between John D. Rockefeller's United States-based Standard Oil Co. and I.G. Farben.[12][13][14][15] It also brought new evidence concerning complex price and marketing agreements between DuPont,[citation needed] a major investor in and producer of leaded gasoline, United States Industrial Alcohol Company and its subsidiary, Cuba Distilling Co. The investigation was eventually dropped, like dozens of others in many different kinds of industries, due to the need to enlist industry support in the war effort.[citation needed] However, the top directors of many oil companies agreed to resign, and oil industry stocks in molasses companies were sold off as part of a compromise worked out.[16][17][18]

Also as far as the rise in output goes, the deskilling process was a major reason for the rise, as skilled workers were replaced with slave labor and specialize machine tools with minimal training needs and far greater efficiency replaced batch craftwork. Uziel makes that point in his book, as does Lutz Budrass in his massive overview work on the German aviation industry:
http://www.amazon.com/Flugzeugindus...8&qid=1401398011&sr=8-1&keywords=lutz+budrass
 
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I tried to warn you about him.

I know, I know. But I disagree with you 70% of the time, 18 times out of 20, so I didn't know. Still, as my mama used to say, never trust politicians or economists. I do feel that the shift from cost plus to fixed price costing might have prevented any attempt to slip an extra nickel into the product. If they had the nickel.
 
"Germany and the Second World War" series is very helpful at undermining Tooze's broader narrative on the economy as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_the_Second_World_War
Basically there was a lot of mismanagement and inefficiency in the German war economy due to the Führerprinzip causing massive infighting for influence that undermined production and ensured the best politician, not the most competent administrator, rose to the top of the rat pile that was the Nazi administration.

Given how many space Tooze devoted to the discussion on the mismanagement issue in "Wages", how would his broader narrative be undermined as that he put forward the same narrative too?
 

Riain

Banned
Just my two cents, he says some good things about French tanks too, presumably because of their big guns and thick armour but ignoring the massive tactical drawback of the single man turret. For me, much like others here, this and other details undermined the general thrust of his argument.
 

Deleted member 1487

Given how many space Tooze devoted to the discussion on the mismanagement issue in "Wages", how would his broader narrative be undermined as that he put forward the same narrative too?
Its been years since I read Wages, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tooze argue basically that Germany was a poor country and topped out on production due to capacity and material constraints and expansion of output only came later due to the increase in production capacity initiated pre-Speer and in the aviation industry the shift to cheaper aircraft (the emergency fighter program).
So effectively mismanagement was incidental rather than causal to low production output until 1942 and increases thereafter only were a function of increased capacity finally being completed.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RGRXR3PZPIEI3/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0143113208#wasThisHelpful
Tooze dispels the myth that without the USA and her industry Germany would have won the war. The USA merely shortened the war. Tooze states:
"the USSR, in 1942 managed to outproduce Germany in every category of weapons. The margin for small arms and artillery was 3:1. For tanks it was a staggering 4:1, a difference compounded by the vastly superior quality if the T34 tank" Even in combat aircraft it was 2:1"
I'm assuming this reviewer got this points from the book, which goes to show some issues with the narrative, as he is picking and choosing what categories to compare here; for instance while the USSR outproduced Germany in tanks (especially light tanks), they were heavily outproduced in halftracks (virtually none by the USSR), locomotives/trains, rockets/missile (V1-V2-V3), jets, submarines, strategic bombers (Germany produced 1200 He177s, the Soviets a few dozen four engine bombers), transport/noncombat aircraft, synthetic oil, industrial equipment (AFAIK the Soviets did not produce new factories during the war and didn't have the capacity to produce electrical power equipment and the like), which was a major investment by Germany during the war, who had to expand and then disperse her industry in underground facilities. Germany also heavily outproduced the USSR in machine tools, in fact only being surpassed by the US in output of those barely (though the US ones were larger specialized machines and where more productive). So by ignoring that the Soviets only produced weapons and let the US and Britain supply her with the other things like trains, electronics, copper wire, avgas, trucks, machine tools, industrial equipment, etc. which completely ignores why Germany wasn't translating her much larger steel and coal output into weapons, i.e. because she was making so much other stuff that the Soviets were getting via Lend-Lease.

"To avoid misunderstandings, this was emphatically a story of Soviet success not German failure."

"The exceptional performer was the USSR in 1942, which produced twice as many infantry weapons, as many artillery pieces and almost as many combat aircraft and tanks as the USA."

"The Soviet miracle was not due to Western assistance. Lend-lease did not being to affect the balance on the Eastern Front until 1943"

"1942 was the pivotal year in the war"
The USSR had been getting LL from the US since October 1941 and been getting shipments that it paid for, i.e. not LL since the start of Barbarossa; that also ignores the significant British contribution of goods to the USSR from the start of Barbarossa onward. What was received was critical too, as industrial equipment like machine tools to replace what had been lost was part of the early shipments, so to say that the production of 1942 was pre-LL making an impact is disingenuous at best, as the early shipments weren't in weapons, but the means to enable the Soviets to make weapons themselves, so that when the US industry was mobilized enough to ship weapons to the USSR, among other important goods, they could maintain themselves in the meantime. And this of course ignores the heavy British contribution throughout the war, but most critically in 1941, especially with tanks and planes that were used in the Battle of Moscow and modern radar equipment that the Soviets copied and mass produced, as their own was heavily inferior and not yet in major production.

Tooze is clearly factually wrong and is either making a mistake or outright lying to make his point about how poorly the German economy functioned due to lack of production capacity by building up the Soviet one as a counter example.

Just my two cents, he says some good things about French tanks too, presumably because of their big guns and thick armour but ignoring the massive tactical drawback of the single man turret. For me, much like others here, this and other details undermined the general thrust of his argument.
I found this on the Amazon reviews that ads a bit about the military history SNAFUs:
The author of the book has a rather deterministic view of the possible outcome of the second world war. While I may disagree with him, I think that he presents his view with sound arguments, but he is not very intellectually honest (or maybe he doesn't know many statistical material concerning the second world war). My criticisms here concern mostly his coverage of the military aspects of the war, with of course, tend to be inferior to his coverage of economic aspects of the war, with are his specialty.

He wants to defend his view that the outcome of the second world war was given as victory to the allies and that Germany didn't stand a chance of surviving a war against them, however he defends that view using distorted statistics. For example, at the Battle of France, Tooze claims that the Allies had 4,500 combat aircraft while Germany had 3,600. But according to E.R Hooton 2007, p. 47-48, the Allies actually had only 2,930 aircraft ready to be deployed while the Germans had 5,640 aircraft ready to be deployed. Which helps to explain why the Germans managed to have airsuperiority at the battle of France. Other examples abound in the book. For the battle of Kursk, Tooze uses a statistic of 2,450 German tanks and SP guns vs 5,130 soviet tanks and SP guns. In fact there are several different estimates for the number of tanks present at the battle, according to Bergström 2007, we have 3,000 German tanks and SP guns versus 3,600 Soviet tanks and SP guns. In several parts of the book he apparently selected his statistics to reflect his views that Germany was fighting against completely overwhelming odds in terms of materiel and men. I have written only two examples here, but with time I can find dozens.

He also says, implicitly, that in the 1944-45 period was the period were German casualties were much greater than preceding periods. He then cites that 1.8 million Germans soldiers died in 1944 and 1.4 million Germans soldiers died in 1945. These statistics are taken from Rudiger Overmans' survey on German military deaths in WW2, this survey has the highest number of German military deaths of the many sources I know. Overmans calculates the number of total military deaths by summing up KIA (2.3 million) + MIA (2 million) + died of wounds (0.5 million) + died in captivity (0.5 million) = 5.3 million. Overmans concluded that 1.75 million died in 1944 and 1.29 million in 1945. Then Tooze rounds up these statistics to 1.8 million and 1.4 million. So in fact, he takes the highest statistic of German military death available and even increases it! But speaking of Overmans's survey it is quite ridiculous to sum up MIA and the number that died in captivity, since the soldiers missing were captured and then died in captivity (in other words: double counting), unless you include the number of soldiers that died after the war, with is not relevant to his purpose of arguing that combat was more intense to the Wehrmacht in 1944-45 than preceding years.

So how the picture looks like if we view only the number of KIA per year?

According to van Creveld 1982, these are the total number of German KIA by fiscal year:
1939-1940 (12 months): 73,829
1940-1941 (12 months): 138,301
1941-1942 (12 months): 445,036
1942-1943 (12 months): 418,276
1943-1944 (12 months): 534,112
1944-dec.1944 (4 months): 167,335, yearly rate: 502,005

The fact is that German combat KIAs were roughly constant from 1941 to 1945, and Soviet combat casualties too: in 1941 the USSR lost 4.3 million men in 6.5 months (KIA+MIA+WIA) about 660,000 per month, in 1945, the USSR lost 2.8 million in 4 months, 700,000 per month. Since around 90% of German KIA was in the Eastern front there is not evidence that the war was more intense in 1944 than in 1941. While since German soldiers were better trained in 1941 than in 1944, I can even argue that the wehrmacht suffered more in 1941 in terms of loss of combat power and fighting edge than in 1944, since the soldiers lost in 1941 were the cream of the army while in 1944 most losses were composed of not-as-good recruits.

To book exaggerates the contributions of the Western allies to the war, in fact, the casualties that Germany suffered against the western powers were almost insignificant compared to the losses against the Soviet Union. Even in 1945, second to Glantz, Germany had 67% of her casualties in the eastern front, which makes sense since in January 1945 (with marks the peak of the allies relative participation in ground warfare), of the 338 divisions equivalents of the wehrmacht, 228 were in the eastern front while only 73 in the western front. In the 3 years from june 1941 to june 1944, about 95% of Germany's casualties were in the eastern front. According to Glantz the western allies probably only contributed to shortening the war in 12 to 18 months. The most important strategic contribution of the Western Allies was the crippling of the Luftwaffe between 1943 and 1945, which permitted an increase of the speed of advance of the Russians in the eastern front, since resources were shifted from production of bombers to counter the Red Army to the production of fighters to counter Bomber Command and the US's 8th airforce.

Tooze critizes Albert Speer, the minister of armmaments during the last 3 years of the war, and the view that Germany`s production of munitions was badly run during the first years of the war. But, during his term (1942-1945) per capita productivity in munitions production more than doubled. No other country reached such high levels of increases in productivity of the munitions related industries. We have two possible reasons: Germany`s munitions production was blady run in the first years of the war, or, at the last years Germany`s production of munitions was incredibly well run. He cannot dismiss the increase in productivity from 1941 and 1944, calling it an statistical illusion.

Also, by comparing relative strengths in the fronts, the allies only had about 90 to 100 divisions in the western front in 1944-45, while Germany had over 300, of with about 200 to 250 were fighting the 400-500 Russian divisions deployed in the eastern front. In terms of personnel the US had 1.4 million frontline soldiers in Europe by december 1944, while Germany had 5 million soldiers deployed in June 1944, the British complemented the Americans with 800,000 soldiers. So the western allies had 2.2 million men versus around 5 million German soldiers in all of Europe. So, I can argue that without the USSR the allies wound never stand a chance of winning the war with the resources that they historically deployed in the European theater. Since most of the economic power of the allies was in the British-American coalition, this fact represents an asymmetry with Tooze's arguments that economic strength determined the outcome of WW2. In fact, economic strength is very important, but it doest solely determines the winner of an armed conflict. In Vietnam, the US had hundreds of times the resources of North Vietnam, but didn`t manage to protect South Vietnam.

Anyway, Tooze main argument is that by attacking the USSR, Hitler embarked on a journey to his own destruction. He is entirely correct in that regard. And he is correct to point out that using information available in 1941, that the USSR was weaker than history proved it to be. Also, it is correct to state that the lack of raw materials was a factor in Germany's defeat, but it wasn't a major factor since munitions weren't the biggest problem in the German war effort, manpower was the biggest: They didn't have enough soldiers to fill the 3 thousand kilometers of the eastern front, nor the soldiers needed to drive out the allies from Normandy. And the population of Germany would not increase with the conquest of the Soviet Union.

Also, Tooze doesn't discuss the fact that German munitions production followed a rather different path than Soviet and American production. Germany produced munitions after they were needed, tank production increased in 1943 because of increased demand in 1942. Fighter production increased in 1944 in response to increased demand in 1943. These were severe strategic errors. In fact, it appears that Tooze argues that Germany was doomed from the start and the victories of the Wehrmacht between 1939 and 1941 were lucky shots. Well, in 1939 to 1941 the Wehrmacht faced opponents with numerical parity, according to wikipedia, in the Battle of France, there were 3.3 million allied soldiers vs 3.31 million German soldiers, while in Barbarossa, accoring to Nigel Askey, there were 3.316 million German soldiers vs 3.31 million soviet soldiers. At the start of operation Blau, according to Glantz, there were 2 million German soldiers vs 1.8 million Soviet soldiers. All these 3 cases ended with the same result: annihilation of the forces opposing Germany. History showed that when you face Germany with numerical parity you lose. To stop the Wehrmacht, the Red Army lost 29 million soldiers in 4 years, gradually eroding the best soldiers of the German army, transforming the wehrmacht into a shadow of its former self, which was not as "invincible" as the "classic" wehrmacht of the 1939-1942 period.

So the allies took note: since they could not achieve qualitative parity they needed numerical superiority. By June 1944 there were 2.4 million German front line soldiers facing 6.7 million Soviet front line soldiers (in terms of total personnel it was 3.9 million Germans vs 10.5 million Soviet), source: Glantz 1995, while in the western front the allies massed 5.4 million personnel (2.2 million front line soldiers), opposing 1.5 million German personnel (~1 million front line soldiers). Note that the western allies needed a larger proportion of the personnel in logistics and other non combat functions than the USSR and Germany, for quite obvious logistical reasons (the Atlantic sea + English channel). The outcome of the following months was a natural conclusion of overwhelming manpower odds. But also, in the crucial battles of Normandy and Bagration, allied success was in a significant regard a consequence of deception, where the Wehrmacht failed to understand were the main trusts would come, so they only allocated reinforcements in both cases after the odds became extremely bad and the battle was already lost.

So, concluding, Wages of Destruction is a good book, but way overrated as it tries to explain more than can be explained with only the economic aspects of the war. Also his theory of a poor and peripheral Germany compared to the US doesn't stand a closer inspection: from 1901 to 1932 Germany produced 32 Nobel prizes in physics, chemistry and medicine, the US produced only 6, the USSR (and the Russian Empire), only 2. These countries were the actual periphery in the pre-WW2 world. For example, the economic superiority of the US didn't translate in massive military superiority in the European theater because of the geographical factors at work (the Atlantic ocean) preventing the deployment of hundreds of American divisions in the European theater, in fact, they deployed only 1.4 million soldiers in the European Theater opposing less than 1 million German soldiers (out of the 5 million front line personnel, mostly concentrated against the USSR). And while the Eastern Front was the decisive front, there Germany in fact had significant economic superiority (producing 4 times more steel, 5 times more aluminium and 5 times more coal than the USSR in 1943) and failed to convert this economic superiority in military superiority over the USSR, particularly in the decisive years of 1942 and 1943. Concluding, basic economic strength played an important role in the war but they were not the main determinant in the outcome. If it were, Germany would have crushed the USSR before the Western Allies could help, so any continental invasion would be destroyed by the hundreds of German divisions freed-ed from the Eastern front. In other words, economics doesn't explain why Germany lost from their strategic position in 1941. The will of the Soviet people is a definite factor to take into account.
 
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I might be interested to know if the author of that last review has written any books. I'm almost finished my last one and I couldn't find it on Amazon reviews. Apparently, mama was right. Thanks, Wik.
 

Riain

Banned
Its been years since I read Wages, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tooze argue basically that Germany was a poor country and topped out on production due to capacity and material constraints and expansion of output only came later due to the increase in production capacity initiated pre-Speer and in the aviation industry the shift to cheaper aircraft (the emergency fighter program).
So effectively mismanagement was incidental rather than causal to low production output until 1942 and increases thereafter only were a function of increased capacity finally being completed...................

:

That's pretty much how I remember the book.

Also as an economist Tooze overstates the economic factors in the war, but often it's not what you have but how you use it. A case in point is that the Soviet out produced the Germans in aircraft numbers, but despite often huge numerical superiority it was the Germans who flew more sorties, often orders of magnitude more sorties, and this is what actually counts.
 

Deleted member 1487

That's pretty much how I remember the book.

Also as an economist Tooze overstates the economic factors in the war, but often it's not what you have but how you use it. A case in point is that the Soviet out produced the Germans in aircraft numbers, but despite often huge numerical superiority it was the Germans who flew more sorties, often orders of magnitude more sorties, and this is what actually counts.

Not to mention quality of the output. Soviet aircraft were of pretty basic construction and quality, with the T-34's early on being really bad (pre-1943, the Aberdeen Proving Ground model was awful).
http://english.battlefield.ru/evaluation-of-the-t-34-and-kv-dp1.html

Basically they produced a bunch of cheap expendable gear that illiterate peasants couldn't mess up too much and could be lost in huge numbers due to loss rates throughout WW2 in the East. By mid 1944-45 quality improved due to production experience, foreign machine tools/methods, and US/British help in organizing industry, but remained below Western standards.

Tooze though also ignores political and bureaucratic problems in the Nazi state that seriously undermined the German war economy pre-1942, actually arguing in a history journal that German documents attesting to the problems of infighting and conflicting orders should be ignored as an invention by Speer and Todt for political gain; he is so wrapped up in his anti-Speer thesis that he ignores the very real issues in industry throughout the war caused by personality, bureaucratic, and political conflicts and Hitler/Goering's whims altering priorities at the drop of a hat or ordering ridiculous projects like the V-3 cannon and various other Wunderwaffen projects.
 
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