ACW idea: Thomas goes South

[River of Death]

I know I am a crazy George Thomas-phile, but even his detractors admitted that he fought brilliantly on the defensive. Related-ly, perhaps 90% of the Civil War buffs out there claim the South lost in part because they were too aggressive overall.

This needs an early breakpoint to influence his personality, but suppose Thomas, while disliking slavery and hating the idea of secession (like so many other southern commanders) decided to remain loyal to his State, and went south with Virginia?

Where does he command, east or west? If east, with personal friend R. E. Lee, in what capacity and how does their relationship work? Who replaces Thomas for the north in his position(s) in the Valley, Kentucky, and ultimately the XIV corps command? And how badly does this mess up the Union effort in Central Tennessee?

 

[Anaxagoras]

Thomas was certainly in the top five of Civil War generals. We always talk about "Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan" as some sort of triumvirate that won the war, but Thomas was far more important to the ultimate Northern victory than was Sheridan, and was arguably just as important as Sherman.

If Thomas goes South, I think he would emerge as one of the top three Confederate generals, alongside Lee and Jackson. He would probably have been as good, if not better, than either Longstreet or Jackson as a corps commander, although his steady and methodical approach would not have allowed him to perform with as much speed and independence as Jackson did in the 1862 Valley Campaign and during the Second Manassas Campaign. Thomas would probably have performed best as an independent army commander of a force in a situation similar to that of the Army of Tennessee from November 1862 to August 1864.

As important as the addition of Thomas to the Confederate leadership would have been, its most important effect would be the denial of his services to the Yankees.

 

[Cyrano]

Thomas couldn't have outperformed Jackson, Jackson's ability to function as both corp commander and an independent operative was essential to the functioning of the Army of Northern Virginia. However, if Thomas did go South I could easily see the South overall fighting a more effective defensive war, as despite his reputation Ol' Stonewall was actually hyper-aggressive. His presence could have possibly changed that, although it really depends on what standing he recieved upon entering the service of the confederacy.

 

[Anaxagoras]

although it really depends on what standing he recieved upon entering the service of the confederacy.

He would have been given a fairly high command quite quickly. Jefferson Davis knew of him and liked him, and was generally partial to officers who had served in the 2nd Cavalry anyway.

 

[Cyrano]

You have a point there, in which case he really could've made a fairly decisive difference. I am not convinced it would've been positive. Who is the single man responsible for holding back the armies of the North and keeping the Confederacy alive? Robert E. Lee. Lee only became the Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia because Johnson, it's commander OTL, died. Throw Thomas into the mix and you either have him commanding from the get-go, or perhaps from Johnson's death. Either way, he couldn't have done better then Granny Lee.

 

[lothaw]

First of all Joe Johnson just got wounded(and later recovered) during the Seven Days battles. This led to Lee taking command for the reasons that he was qualified and he was in Richmond at the time. It's unlikely you're going to have both Lee and Confederate Sumner in the area at the time.

Sumner will have already been sent west by the time, or very likely could have ended up in overall command right away as Johnson did OTL and as such would have been in charge at Manasas. I suppose it's possible he could be a Corps commander under Johnson, in which case he's the likely heir to Johnson. Which in all liklihood, Lee would get sent West then, which would be interesting all by itself.

Ideally for the South you'd want Sumner to end up in Bragg's spot. Though realisticly, Davis was loyal to his friends so... Bragg is going to end up in a high slot somewhere unless he screws up monumentally.

 

[Tank Cdr]

If you are going to use these ideas to develop a timeline perhaps the friendship between Thomas and Lee could be the POD. Have Lee convince his friend that it would be wrong to take up arms against the state of Virginia, which is why Lee refused Lincoln's offer of Command in the North. I agree that having Thomas would be a major asset for the South, but I disagree with the defensive mindset. No war was ever won on the defense. I believe that Jackson should have been reinforced and allowed to invade the North as he pleaded to be allowed to do. Support to bring the wayward states back into a Union that they did not want will fade out real quick when your homes are in danger. Just my thoughts.

 

[Anaxagoras]

No war was ever won on the defense.

True, unless you count all the ones that were.

 

[Nytram01]

Thomas was offered the position of Chief of Ordnance in the Provisional Virignian Army in 1861 in OTL and if he had accepted he would have been one of the highest ranking officers in the Virginian military and that would have carried over to the Confederacy. What happened then is important to what he would do.

If Thomas is automatically transfered from the Ordnance department of the Virginian Army to the Ordnance department of the Confederacy he will fade very much into the background but if Thomas transfers to a infantry command he is sure to get a brigade command in, most likely the Army of the Potomac (CS) - possibly after Philip St. George Cocke leaves the army and kills himself.

Thomas would thus come under the command of Joe Johnston and may find favor under Johnston where G.W. Smith did in OTL and rise to be one of Johnston's wing commanders - along with Longstreet - or he may stay under Smith or Longstreet as part of their wings.

Alternatively, as he is a Virginian, he may be promoted to command the division Ewell go in OTL because Ewell's promotion to divisional command was mainly done by the President because Ewell was a Virginian and Davis tried to ballance things politically - Ewell himself expressed ignorance as to why he had been promoted. If this happens he will work under Jackson in the Valley.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Robert E. Lee. Lee only became the Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia because Johnson, it's commander OTL, died. Throw Thomas into the mix and you either have him commanding from the get-go, or perhaps from Johnson's death.

Firstly, it's "Johnston", not "Johnson". Secondly, he wasn't killed, but only wounded (indeed, he went on to play a critical role throughout the rest of the war).

Sumner will have already been sent west by the time, or very likely could have ended up in overall command right away as Johnson did OTL and as such would have been in charge at Manasas. I suppose it's possible he could be a Corps commander under Johnson, in which case he's the likely heir to Johnson. Which in all liklihood, Lee would get sent West then, which would be interesting all by itself.

Ideally for the South you'd want Sumner to end up in Bragg's spot. Though realisticly, Davis was loyal to his friends so... Bragg is going to end up in a high slot somewhere unless he screws up monumentally.

Why are you calling Thomas "Sumner"?

 

[Ghost 88]

Thomas was offered the position of Chief of Ordnance in the Provisional Virignian Army in 1861 in OTL and if he had accepted he would have been one of the highest ranking officers in the Virginian military and that would have carried over to the Confederacy. What happened then is important to what he would do.

If Thomas is automatically transfered from the Ordnance department of the Virginian Army to the Ordnance department of the Confederacy he will fade very much into the background but if Thomas transfers to a infantry command he is sure to get a brigade command in, most likely the Army of the Potomac (CS) - possibly after Philip St. George Cocke leaves the army and kills himself.

Thomas would thus come under the command of Joe Johnston and may find favor under Johnston where G.W. Smith did in OTL and rise to be one of Johnston's wing commanders - along with Longstreet - or he may stay under Smith or Longstreet as part of their wings.

Alternatively, as he is a Virginian, he may be promoted to command the division Ewell go in OTL because Ewell's promotion to divisional command was mainly done by the President because Ewell was a Virginian and Davis tried to ballance things politically - Ewell himself expressed ignorance as to why he had been promoted. If this happens he will work under Jackson in the Valley.

Phillip St George Cooke did not leave the Army he stayed in the US Army and died 30 years after the ACW ended. His son fought for the CSA, as did his little regarded son in law. This son-in-law did little to help the Southern cause as they kept him in cavalry commands till he died at Yellow Tavern in 1864. Yes James Ewell Brown Stuart achieved little as the commander of horse for the Army of Northern Virginia.

 

[Tank Cdr]

True, unless you count all the ones that were.

Wars were won by countries defending themselves, but offensive operations aimed at the enemies armies led to that victory. For example, the United States won what was a defensive war for it's independence, but it took offensive action on the battlefield, for example Yorktown, to achieve victory. However, you are correct on a strategic level.

 

[67th Tigers]

If Thomas is automatically transfered from the Ordnance department of the Virginian Army to the Ordnance department of the Confederacy he will fade very much into the background but if Thomas transfers to a infantry command he is sure to get a brigade command in, most likely the Army of the Potomac (CS) - possibly after Philip St. George Cocke leaves the army and kills himself.

Given his relative seniority in the US Army (which was a major factor in deciding initial ranks in the CS Army) he's a candidate for Full General, and if not that then a Major General certainly.

He certainly ranks Longstreet, who he has 3 years seniority as a Major on in the US Army.

 

[Nytram01]

Phillip St George Cooke did not leave the Army he stayed in the US Army and died 30 years after the ACW ended. His son fought for the CSA, as did his little regarded son in law. This son-in-law did little to help the Southern cause as they kept him in cavalry commands till he died at Yellow Tavern in 1864. Yes James Ewell Brown Stuart achieved little as the commander of horse for the Army of Northern Virginia.

Wrong guy. Philip St. George Cooke, JEB Stuart's father-in-law, stayed with the Union and fought against the Confederacy before stepping down from field service after being embarrased by Stuart while Philip St. George Cocke was a Confederate General who fought at Manassas and left the AotP(CS) after arguments with Beauregard and shot himself.

Philip St. George Cooke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_St._George_Cooke#Civil_War

Philip St. George Cocke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_St._George_Cocke

 

[usertron2020]

Wouldn't the fact that his wife was a New York Yankee been a drag on his decision to go South?

 

[Anaxagoras]

Given his relative seniority in the US Army (which was a major factor in deciding initial ranks in the CS Army) he's a candidate for Full General, and if not that then a Major General certainly.

He certainly ranks Longstreet, who he has 3 years seniority as a Major on in the US Army.

The Confederate law which used an officer's previous rank in the U.S. Army to determine seniority applied only to Full Generals, not Major Generals or Brigadier Generals. So whether he or Longstreet ranked one another would have depended on their date of commission within the Confederate Army alone.

 

[robertp6165]

Wouldn't the fact that his wife was a New York Yankee been a drag on his decision to go South?

Well then maybe the POD here is that he marries a Virginia gal.

 

[Fiver]

Thomas was offered the position of Chief of Ordnance in the Provisional Virignian Army in 1861 in OTL and if he had accepted he would have been one of the highest ranking officers in the Virginian military and that would have carried over to the Confederacy. What happened then is important to what he would do.

If Thomas is automatically transfered from the Ordnance department of the Virginian Army to the Ordnance department of the Confederacy he will fade very much into the background.

OTOH, if he can end up in charge of Commissary instead of Ordinance, replacing the incompetent Lucius Northrop, Thomas organizational skills should lead to a better supplied Confederate army. Almost nobody would have heard of him, but he would make a significant impact.

 

[GreatScottMarty]

All I can I can think of is Thomas instead of Johnston at Lookout Mountain or anywhere else on Sherman's Atlanta campaign. I think it is universally agreed that Johnston was an excellent offensive general and poor defensive one. One would think Thomas commanding the CSA West would do much better fighting the defensive war out there. As an aside it seems as though the CSA needed to fight offensively in the East and defensively in the West and, especially by '64, at all costs hold Atlanta (although New Orleans and Vicksburg would have helped); objectives that seem to hold to Thomas' skills.

 

[Anaxagoras]

All I can I can think of is Thomas instead of Johnston at Lookout Mountain or anywhere else on Sherman's Atlanta campaign.

The Battle of Lookout Mountain took place during the Chattanooga Campaign, not the Atlanta Campaign. You might be thinking of Kennesaw Mountain, but Johnston won that one.

I think it is universally agreed that Johnston was an excellent offensive general and poor defensive one.

Actually, the opposite is closer to the truth. Generally, Johnston was seen as far too cautious and reluctant to attack.

One would think Thomas commanding the CSA West would do much better fighting the defensive war out there.

I agree. If we imagine Thomas in high command of Confederate forces in the Western Theater (perhaps in command of a field army in Tennessee), I can see nothing but good for the Confederacy.