AANW WI: No Horten Brothers Flying Wing?

Wendigo

Banned
What if in the Anglo American Nazi War TL Hitler has a moment of sanity and doesn't waste massive resources and time on the Horten Brothers Flying Wing design at the cost of the development of other superior aircraft?

What would this mean for the air campaign once the Hot War started and the Allies invaded?

Relevant excerpt from AANW:

The Allies also benefited greatly from Hitler’s devotion to the design firm of the Horten Brothers. The Hortens had a long, ultimately failed, fascination with the “Flying Wing” concept, similar to that of American designer Jack Northrop. The flying wing was a seductive design since it, in theory, offered so many advantages over conventional designs, which included a vertical stabilizer. The design concept was eventually found to have so many serious stability issues that it was found to be unusable in combat, something that was determined by the U.S. at a cost of nearly $100 million dollars and two air crews, but was not accepted by the Nazi Party for nearly six years and close to RM 2,000 million of investment (well over five times the amount spent by the United States out of a Reich air research & development budget roughly a quarter the size of the U.S. program). The money and manpower used on the Horton Brothers designs set back or eliminated several far more promising, albeit conventional, designs from Focke-Wulf (which had its Ta-183 delayed for nearly four years), Heinkel, Junkers, and Messerschmitt (including the death of the very promising P-1108/I jet bomber project). Had any of these design companies received the support provided to the Horton Brothers Ho X fighter-bomber or Ho XVIII long-range bomber between 1945 and 1953, the Allies would have faced a far more capable Luftwaffe.
 
The Allies face a much harder war in the air. Whether or not it leads to another stalemate depends on how effectively the Allies respond.
 

Deleted member 1487

What if in the Anglo American Nazi War TL Hitler has a moment of sanity and doesn't waste massive resources and time on the Horten Brothers Flying Wing design at the cost of the development of other superior aircraft?

What would this mean for the air campaign once the Hot War started and the Allies invaded?

Relevant excerpt from AANW:
Like so many things the Nazis invested in the flying wing only ended up benefiting the Allies post-war. Throw in the V-2 and -3, the Ratte/Maus, nerve gases, various 'death cannons', and probably the Schwerer Gustav gun and you get huge heaps of engineering talent, resources, and manpower that could have gone elsewhere. But by the time the Allies invaded in 1944 it was too late to matter. Frankly by 1943 it was too late the damage was done and other than an ASB ISOT (I've got that idea going in the ASB section right now) giving them 1945 tech in 1943, saving the resources from all of the above (I do question how much was spent on the flying wing project, I've never seen 2 Billion RM before), it was just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic as it sunk. Even getting the Ta-153 operation by June 1944 would be too late. Looking at Zetterling's book on Normandy it would seem that the German army was unable to equip it's divisions properly, nor staff them. The game was up.
 

marathag

Banned
Jack Northrop gets almost all the credit postwar for flying wings, with Charles Zimmerman the remainder.

Hortons didn't get that many RMs to spend, a half million RM isn't that much, that's $200,000

Nazis wasted far more than that on really silly projects, like U-Boats towing V2 missiles.
 

Wendigo

Banned
Like so many things the Nazis invested in the flying wing only ended up benefiting the Allies post-war. Throw in the V-2 and -3, the Ratte/Maus, nerve gases, various 'death cannons', and probably the Schwerer Gustav gun and you get huge heaps of engineering talent, resources, and manpower that could have gone elsewhere. But by the time the Allies invaded in 1944 it was too late to matter. Frankly by 1943 it was too late the damage was done and other than an ASB ISOT (I've got that idea going in the ASB section right now) giving them 1945 tech in 1943, saving the resources from all of the above (I do question how much was spent on the flying wing project, I've never seen 2 Billion RM before), it was just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic as it sunk. Even getting the Ta-153 operation by June 1944 would be too late. Looking at Zetterling's book on Normandy it would seem that the German army was unable to equip it's divisions properly, nor staff them. The game was up.

All excellent points but the OP refers to CalBear's Anglo American Nazi War TL where the Reich occupied the USSR up to the Urals and so on which I'm sure you're familiar with.

The question isn't what if they didn't build the Flying Wing IOTL but what if they didn't attenpt to build it and used the resources on other aircraft in the AANW verse from 1945 to 1953?
 

Deleted member 1487

All excellent points but the OP refers to CalBear's Anglo American Nazi War TL where the Reich occupied the USSR up to the Urals and so on which I'm sure you're familiar with. So the question isn't what if they didn't build the Flying Wing IOTL but what if they didn't build it in the AANW TL in the late 40s/early 50s?
Oh. AFAIK it worked as a design, so it wouldn't have been a waste and I think Calbear is wrong.
 

Deleted member 1487

*GASP* Heresy!
Not the first time I've said that and told him personally. But hey I know plenty of people have taken issues with my TLs too, so its not like I'm perfect either.
 

Wendigo

Banned
D-day, the Luftwaffe, massive intelligence failures, falling for the same tricks REPEATEDLY......

The Nazis weren't that stupid, IMO.

True. Even in the story it says that the Allies expected the Reich to fall for the False Peak operations a few times but they kept falling for it OVER and OVER again. There's inflexible doctrine and then there's outright stupidity. I can believe them being incompetent at the very beginning of the Ground War but to stay that stupid throughout the entire war and never learn from their mistakes is a major feat in and of itself.

A minor example would be their refusal to build helicopters merely because Goering didn't "like" the idea. An idea that if implemented could have given the Allies a more difficult campaign and made the story more interesting.

If they were a TENTH as good at military matters in the story as they were at carrying out Generalplan Ost (working to death over 70 MILLION people in 2 decades is no small feat), keeping the occupied populations under control, making effective/efficient use of slave labor, and designing deadly bio/chem weapons and rocketry the Allies would have had far more trouble than they did originally.

The inability of the Reich’s forces to anticipate the mass use of helicopters has been traced to the very top Luftwaffe commanders, starting with Goring himself. There seems to have been a near hatred for the entire concept of massed helicopters by the former commander of the Flying Circus, something that some biographers have attributed to a desire to see more fighters and bomber produced, something that would have been diluted by a major helicopter program. In any case, the Reich failure to act, even after the use of helicopters in Sicily, is not out of step with the general tactical inflexibility shown by most SS and Luftwaffe senior officers. It is perhaps fortunate that the same evil mantra that led to the Nazi Party’s excesses also reduced its ability to react to change.
 
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True. Even in the story it says that the Allies expected the Reich to fall for the False Peak operations a few times but they kept falling for it OVER and OVER again. There's inflexible doctrine and then there's outright stupidity.

A minor example would be their refusal to build helicopters merely because Goering and the Luftwaffe high command didn't "like" the idea. An idea that if implemented could have given the Allies a more difficult campaign and made the story more interesting.

It gets frustrating to see Nazis getting beat up, always.

At least have them be semi competent, which is what they were OTL. That would have made an even more chilling, and, IMO, interesting and less predicatable, story.

@CalBear , would you mind explaining?.....
 
It gets frustrating to see Nazis getting beat up, always.

At least have them be semi competent, which is what they were OTL. That would have made an even more chilling, and, IMO, interesting and less predicatable, story.

@CalBear , would you mind explaining?.....

It's called "Victory Disease." Also, the Allies didn't have 100% unbroken successes. There were a few hiccups, such as when they first encountered superior German tanks.
 
It's called "Victory Disease." Also, the Allies didn't have 100% unbroken successes. There were a few hiccups, such as when they first encountered superior German tanks.

That falls falt when the Nazis did it AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Which they immediately countered by building giant tnaks of their own that somehow works, while Nazi ones don't.
 

CalBear

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Oh. AFAIK it worked as a design, so it wouldn't have been a waste and I think Calbear is wrong.
Okay.
Most of this was covered back when the original T/L was posted, but...

Pre-computer assist flying wings were great places to find the name for Air Bases (the B-49 gave us Edwards AFB) and little else. The are great right up until they aren't, then they kill you. The flying wing has a tendency to become divergent on all three axes, that is one of their biggest advantages for combat, they are dynamically unstable, allowing rapid maneuvering that a conventional aircraft can not match (as an aside, this same sort of instability is built into the F-16 design, without fly-by-wire it is a smoking hole waiting to happen). This fatal problem can be prevented by continuous, near instantaneous, corrections to control surfaces (unfortunately these corrections are necessarily faster than human reaction time, and need to take place on multiple surfaces).

Four decades of research by the U.S., USSR, UK, France, PRC, and private efforts at the height of the Cold War say that the entire concept wouldn't work without fly-by-wire technology. One TV documentary says it would. I'm liking my position here.

The research cost is extrapolated from the V-1 & V-2 program, which cost roughly $3B 1944 USD (about 150% of Manhattan or ~5B RM). Hitler would spend whatever it took once he decided he wanted something to work. even if it wouldn't work or if the RoI was beyond pitiful. Far beyond any of the other major political players of the era, including Churchill (which is saying something), Hitler was cursed with a severe case of "Oooh! Shiny!". Worse, unlike any of the other players, he listened to absolutely no one, about anything, once he decided it was good idea (even Stalin could, occasionally, be persuaded to reconsider a course of action, provided it wasn't political). Hitler displayed this IOTL even after he was losing the damned war, if anything the tendency became more pronounced as thing went into the dumpster. There is absolutely no reason to expect that a victorious Fuhrer would be more accommodating to the opinions of others.

As far as the "idiot ball" - The Nazis were, IOTL, saddled with the largest idiot ball seen since Ala al-Din Muhammad II of Khwarezm gave Genghis Khan's ambassadors their haircut.

It was incredibly difficult to figure out a way to reduce their stupid far enough to get the original T/L (i.e the "Preface" in the posted T/L which was supposed to be the whole project) to work. Had to find POD that kept them out of Africa and the Med, got them to send winter clothing to the troops, had Hitler rein in the the other fascist idiot so there would sufficient troops to actually make Barbarossa workable, etc. The Reich would find a play they liked, and they would keep running it, even when it started to get stopped at the line of scrimmage. Some of the General officers were very clever, innovative, and flexible. This being said, the higher one went in the command chain, especially once you entered the political strata, predictable was their watchword. This, BTW, was why Wacht am Rhein worked as well as it did, it was utterly out of character (except for the reality that it, well, ignored reality, in that way it was classic Hitler reasoning). In an AANW world, Hitler would have more or less retired out the General Staff whenever possible (age, illness, whatever) and replaced those officers with those of greater political reliability (his distrust of the General Staff is well documented) without much concern about military skills, after all, Hitler was his own CiC. It is worth keeping in mind that Hitler gave Himmler, of all people, command of TWO Army Groups (Upper Rhine and Vistula) so he was a less than stellar judge of military acumen.

To the original question... without the Horten Brothers siren song the Luftwaffe would have wound up with a lot of rocket and mixed powered point interceptors (when they would have figured out the whole supersonic issue is an interesting question, especially in a practical design) and eventually the Ta-183 or some similar design once they managed to get the bugs out (the Ta-183 was another one of those "cool beans I love this- OH SHIT!" designs).
 

CalBear

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That falls falt when the Nazis did it AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Which they immediately countered by building giant tnaks of their own that somehow works, while Nazi ones don't.
Except the American design was based on an actual vehicle the M-103.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M103_(heavy_tank)

It worked IRL. I did touch things up for dramatic purposes. especially the mad dash aspect, but the vehicle itself was quite real, right down to the gun. This was also something I discussed back when it was posted. It was largely lost in the great L7 105mm controversy that took place at the same time.
 

Deleted member 1487

Okay.
Most of this was covered back when the original T/L was posted, but...

Pre-computer assist flying wings were great places to find the name for Air Bases (the B-49 gave us Edwards AFB) and little else. The are great right up until they aren't, then they kill you. The flying wing has a tendency to become divergent on all three axes, that is one of their biggest advantages for combat, they are dynamically unstable, allowing rapid maneuvering that a conventional aircraft can not match (as an aside, this same sort of instability is built into the F-16 design, without fly-by-wire it is a smoking hole waiting to happen). This fatal problem can be prevented by continuous, near instantaneous, corrections to control surfaces (unfortunately these corrections are necessarily faster than human reaction time, and need to take place on multiple surfaces).

Four decades of research by the U.S., USSR, UK, France, PRC, and private efforts at the height of the Cold War say that the entire concept wouldn't work without fly-by-wire technology. One TV documentary says it would. I'm liking my position here.
I'm not an expert on flying wings, so I may well be wrong, but AFAIK the Ho229 had a design feature that didn't require the fly-by-wire correct to work and it's major problems were engine related. Generically what you describe is a problem for the Flying Wing concept, but the Ho229 had a built in corrective measure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_wing
For any aircraft to fly without constant correction it must have directional stability in yaw.
Yet another approach uses differential twist or wash out, together with a swept-back wing planform and a suitable airfoil section. Prandtl, Pankonin and others discovered this and it was fundamental to the yaw stability of the Horten brothers flying wings of the 1930s and 1940s. The Hortens described a "bell shaped lift distribution" across the span of the wing, with more lift in the center section and less at the tips due to their reduced angle of incidence, or washing out. This creates a slightly forward-pointing lift vector for the rear (outer) section of the wing. When displaced, this vector essentially "pulls" the trailing wing forward to re-align the aircraft along its flight path.[18]^ Guiler, R.W.; Control of a swept wing tailless aircraft through wing morphing, ICAS 2008: 26th Congress of International Council of the Aeronautical Sciences, Paper ICAS 2008-2.7.1, Pages 1–2.
From what I could find out about the Ho229 it worked and didn't require that computer stabilization because of the above design feature.
 

CalBear

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I'm not an expert on flying wings, so I may well be wrong, but AFAIK the Ho229 had a design feature that didn't require the fly-by-wire correct to work and it's major problems were engine related. Generically what you describe is a problem for the Flying Wing concept, but the Ho229 had a built in corrective measure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_wing

From what I could find out about the Ho229 it worked and didn't require that computer stabilization because of the above design feature.
The feature only works for one of the three axes (specifically yaw), and only until the aircraft enters a spin, especially a flat spin. At that point the aircraft will become unrecoverable. Flat spins are nasty with conventional aircraft.

It is always possible to find a paper that supports a conclusion (publish or die more or less demands it), but that does not mean that it is definitive. I do not have an advanced degree in the subject, I rely on those that do, the overwhelming number of those folks state that the aircraft would not function properly in all reasonably likely weather and maneuver conditions. Moreover, I rely on the fact that, despite all the vast, very real advantages that a pure wing design offers, no one managed to make it work, despite access to the Ho-229 itself, the Horton Brothers, their design papers, and decades of trying.
 

Deleted member 1487

The feature only works for one of the three axes (specifically yaw), and only until the aircraft enters a spin, especially a flat spin. At that point the aircraft will become unrecoverable. Flat spins are nasty with conventional aircraft.

It is always possible to find a paper that supports a conclusion (publish or die more or less demands it), but that does not mean that it is definitive. I do not have an advanced degree in the subject, I rely on those that do, the overwhelming number of those folks state that the aircraft would not function properly in all reasonably likely weather and maneuver conditions. Moreover, I rely on the fact that, despite all the vast, very real advantages that a pure wing design offers, no one managed to make it work, despite access to the Ho-229 itself, the Horton Brothers, their design papers, and decades of trying.
Having done so more reading on the Ho229 there were none captured intact by the US and what was rebuild was never flown for fear of the unreliability of the Jumo 004. Much of the documentation of the Ho229 was destroyed too, so rather than bothering with it it seems the US just mothballed their one example and forgot about it. They let the Hortons go after several interviews and pretty much left the German research alone and kept on with their own work, which did not have the feature mentioned above. Any info about the Horton work was either not provided to or ignored by Northrop. As to the advantages of the flying wing, most air forces were quite conservative and just didn't want to run the risk of an untried radical new design given budget cuts after the war; what funding they did have was plowed into conventional designs. It was only much later when stealth technology was revived that the wing got a second look. If anything no one wanted to take any risks until the stealth benefit was really known and of course by then funding was ridiculous for the air force thanks to Reagan. That and finally getting the Korean and Vietnam wars out of the way, which sucked up most funding that crippled the more radical aircraft projects like the Flying Wing.

http://greyfalcon.us/The Horten Ho 229.htm
The Ho-229's design employed a thoroughly modern wing shape far ahead of its time. The wing had a twist so that in level flight the wingtips (and thus, the ailerons) were parallel with the ground. The center section was twisted upwards, which deflected air in flight, and provided the majority of its lift. Because of this twist in its shape, If the pilot pulled up too suddenly, the nose would stall (or, lose lift) before the wingtips. This meant that the craft's nose would inherently dip in the beginnings of a stall causing the plane to accelerate downwards, and thus it would naturally avoid a flat spin. A flat spin is difficult to recover from, and many rookie pilots have crashed from this condition. Horten also noticed in wind-tunnel testing that in the beginnings of a stall, most airfoil cross-sections began losing lift on their front and rear edges first. Horten designed an airfoil cross-section that developed most of its lift along the centerline of the wing. Since the center line had high lift and the front and rear edges had low lift, it was called a "Bell-Shaped lift curve". The wings were also swept back at a very modern and optimum angle (his gliders from the 1930's used this sweep long before it became popular) which enhanced its stall-resistance, and also lowered its wind-resistance which helped its top speed. This made the Ho-229 easy to fly and very stall-resistant in all phases of its operation.
 
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