A world without the Roman Empire
- Thread starter Kester
- Start date
I don't know about Christianity specifically - but it's likely that a unifying religion would take hold in a long-lasting empire that included the whole Mediterranean world. Maybe it would have been the cult of Isis or Mithras or a Carthaginian state god or something.
I think the Greeks would still have held a special position - given that their culture and language were widely spread throughout the eastern half of the region, especially because that half was the more economically and politically developed. I don't know how culturally Hellenized the Carthaginians were, but they so seem to have interacted for a long time with the Greek world and behaved much like a Hellenistic state. They might not have ended up with very different relations with Greece then Rome did have.
As for the Jews -that's a tough question. I think the radical rejection of all things foreign had been characteristic of Jewish life since maybe the 6th century BC and the end of the Babylonian exile. If we knew more about the Persian period we could make a better judgement about that - but anyway it seems to have been fixed long before the Romans came around. The fact that the Carthaginians were related to and to some extent carried the culture of the Canaanites the ancient Jews seem to have hated so much may have made them more confrontational, not less in fact.
Alcuin
Banned
It's worse than that, "Ba'al" actually means "Lord" in several Semitic languages. "Adonai", the Hebrew for "Lord" (as in the phrase "Adonai Elohim", meaning "Lord of the Gods") clearly comes from the indo-European root that gives us Don (as in Corleone), Adonis etc.
I feel the one of Alexander's successors would have finally beaten the Carthagians and set up a Greek Empire in the East. Then, freed of Carthage's rule, the Romans would gain control of the West and there would be many years of conflict between the two.
As far as Christianity is concerned, it may have sprung from Jewish roots but it is a Greek religion, shaped by Saul of Tarsus. It would thrive in a Greek Empire.
As far as Christianity is concerned, it may have sprung from Jewish roots but it is a Greek religion, shaped by Saul of Tarsus. It would thrive in a Greek Empire.
Speaking about Christianity, I am unsure whether or not it would manage to appear at all, for Seleucids would have definitely smashed Judea without the help of Romans to Jews during Maccabei's Uprising, and Antiochus IV Epiphanus would have likely ordered either to exterminate, or to re-settle all Jews at all. In that case, no Christianity would have appeared, as well as Islam, and the major world religions of Medieval (if it would have been at all) would be some reformed pro-Mithraist cult and the Persian Zoroastrism plus maybe some religious teaching based on Stoicism (which had already emerged and gained influence BEFORE Punic Wars).
Well, one thing the Carthaginians had that the Romans didn't really
have in their culture is a Maritime Tradition, (until they gained their
Empire). Recall that Carthage started as a Phoenician Colony. These
were very adventurous folks. Instead of Roads all Commerce in the
Western Mediteranean would move with Ships and routes becoming
ever more reliable.
So the Major cities and manufacturing centers of their empire would all face the Sea, Or be sited on a Deep water River, that leads to a sea.
I envision ALOT of canal building in suitable areas.
Also They would probably discover the NEW WORLD in the latter half of
the 1st Milleniun, BEFORE Leif Ericson.
As far as government. If they were traders and merchants, perhaps a
look at the development of the Dutch Republic might be their "stable"
final form. Sure I envivison a period where a few plutocrats might gain
all the power, the French Revolution showed us how populations can take care of that problem.
As far as religion. I envision a Soft Handed State Religion that has room
for the gods of others, except of course YAWEH and his children.
have in their culture is a Maritime Tradition, (until they gained their
Empire). Recall that Carthage started as a Phoenician Colony. These
were very adventurous folks. Instead of Roads all Commerce in the
Western Mediteranean would move with Ships and routes becoming
ever more reliable.
So the Major cities and manufacturing centers of their empire would all face the Sea, Or be sited on a Deep water River, that leads to a sea.
I envision ALOT of canal building in suitable areas.
Also They would probably discover the NEW WORLD in the latter half of
the 1st Milleniun, BEFORE Leif Ericson.
As far as government. If they were traders and merchants, perhaps a
look at the development of the Dutch Republic might be their "stable"
final form. Sure I envivison a period where a few plutocrats might gain
all the power, the French Revolution showed us how populations can take care of that problem.
As far as religion. I envision a Soft Handed State Religion that has room
for the gods of others, except of course YAWEH and his children.
I like Kester's scenario--a Carthage-dominated Rome leads to the two civilizations merging into one mega-civ combining the best of both.
Flocculencio
Donor
Actually modern representative democracy owes much more to the Anglo-Saxon system of government than to Greco-Roman culture. True, later Anglo-Saxon law was influenced to a great extent by Roman law but I'd argue that the basic representative system used in Anglo-Saxon society forms the basis for modern representative democracy.
I can't beleive no one remembered the Celts. 
No one should forget the Celts, especially since we beat up Romans and Greeks alot in those days .
That, and the fact that we were the third greatest European culture in early-classical times .
Anyone seen these - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_Barbarians?
No one should forget the Celts, especially since we beat up Romans and Greeks alot in those days
.That, and the fact that we were the third greatest European culture in early-classical times
.Anyone seen these - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_Barbarians?
Some revised questions for you . . .
I've been too busy to check this thread until recently and have been blown away by the variety of responses. My e-mail messages missed most of them.
I really should sit down with them to check for commonalities and divergencies of views but at first look I see several trends:-
The Greeks are accepted by most as the deep philosophers of this region and history.
The Jews are felt to be unlikely to merge with the wider Semitic culture.
The origins of Christianity do seem to be predicated on the interactions with Rome.
The Romans are considered to be focused on land and the Carthaginians on the sea routes.
So, what if the Jews became the most successful businessmen in a Carthaginian Empire -- would they be more likely to bend and merge if they were the leaders rather than the oppressed?
I would suggest the Carthaginian seafarers would venture south, around Africa (as did Prince Henry the Navigator's captains) and open Europe and the Mediterranean to the Far East rather than venture out into the Atlantic. (But that might have pushed far more Viking effort into Vinland.)
Are we suppose that if there was no Messiah window in Judaism, would a 'Saviour' have appeared in another culture? Which one and when?
Kester.
PS My first alternate world/SF novel "Deadly Enterprise" is due out from Double Dragon E-books as a $5.99 download in June.
I've been too busy to check this thread until recently and have been blown away by the variety of responses. My e-mail messages missed most of them.
I really should sit down with them to check for commonalities and divergencies of views but at first look I see several trends:-
The Greeks are accepted by most as the deep philosophers of this region and history.
The Jews are felt to be unlikely to merge with the wider Semitic culture.
The origins of Christianity do seem to be predicated on the interactions with Rome.
The Romans are considered to be focused on land and the Carthaginians on the sea routes.
So, what if the Jews became the most successful businessmen in a Carthaginian Empire -- would they be more likely to bend and merge if they were the leaders rather than the oppressed?
I would suggest the Carthaginian seafarers would venture south, around Africa (as did Prince Henry the Navigator's captains) and open Europe and the Mediterranean to the Far East rather than venture out into the Atlantic. (But that might have pushed far more Viking effort into Vinland.)
Are we suppose that if there was no Messiah window in Judaism, would a 'Saviour' have appeared in another culture? Which one and when?
Kester.
PS My first alternate world/SF novel "Deadly Enterprise" is due out from Double Dragon E-books as a $5.99 download in June.
Alcuin
Banned
None at all. I just noticed the one word, "Adonai" and coincidentally the Hittite word, Adonis (a title given to their god Tammuz who in turn gave rise to the Greek legend of Adonis). I have absolutely no idea whether it has any others.
ninebucks
Banned
I don't think that the political focal point will continue to be around North Africa.
By this time there is already an irreversable dustball effect taking place in North Africa (caused by extensive overfarming). The increasing irrelevence of North Africa had little to do the location of the Imperial capital (in OTL's case, Rome), but rather due to inescapably climactic conditions.
Even if Carthage survived, eventually, they will have to abandon North Africa is they want to continue to be the big dogs. Perhaps moving to Novo Cartago in southeast Spain? In any case, the modern age still belongs to Europe.
By this time there is already an irreversable dustball effect taking place in North Africa (caused by extensive overfarming). The increasing irrelevence of North Africa had little to do the location of the Imperial capital (in OTL's case, Rome), but rather due to inescapably climactic conditions.
Even if Carthage survived, eventually, they will have to abandon North Africa is they want to continue to be the big dogs. Perhaps moving to Novo Cartago in southeast Spain? In any case, the modern age still belongs to Europe.
Look out for Celts bearing arms
I guess I hadn't considered the northern barbarians moving in on my speculative Carthaginian Empire. The Romans fought them off because they had little choice, but with the centre of an empire across the Med at Carthage, the Punic Empire may have had less incentive to sustain the effort.
Actually, it may have served their interests to let the invading Gallic tribes wipe the floor with what remained of the Romans -- then they could move in later and pick up the pieces. The Celts were willing to absorb the knowledge and customs of better organised cultures (Gaul, Britain) so perhaps they would have become the backbone of a Europe run by a Mediterranean culture.
Kester.
I can't beleive no one remembered the Celts.
No one should forget the Celts, especially since we beat up Romans and Greeks alot in those days
That, and the fact that we were the third greatest European culture in early-classical times
Anyone seen these - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_Barbarians?
I guess I hadn't considered the northern barbarians moving in on my speculative Carthaginian Empire. The Romans fought them off because they had little choice, but with the centre of an empire across the Med at Carthage, the Punic Empire may have had less incentive to sustain the effort.
Actually, it may have served their interests to let the invading Gallic tribes wipe the floor with what remained of the Romans -- then they could move in later and pick up the pieces. The Celts were willing to absorb the knowledge and customs of better organised cultures (Gaul, Britain) so perhaps they would have become the backbone of a Europe run by a Mediterranean culture.
Kester.
Egypt was the granary of Rome
Do you have a timeline for the desertification of North Africa -- I think the worst of it happened after 700AD when the Arabs took over. Even in modern times there are fertile areas (I worked in the Libyan oilfields in the 60s) and the land was very fertile if any water hit it. Perhaps Carthage would have become a society of expert irrigators.
Cartagena would likely have been the second city in their empire in any event. If they wanted any metalworking industry they would have also made Genoa, Turin, and Santander important centres, so the empire's focus would -- as you say -- have been northward.
Kester.
Do you have a timeline for the desertification of North Africa -- I think the worst of it happened after 700AD when the Arabs took over. Even in modern times there are fertile areas (I worked in the Libyan oilfields in the 60s) and the land was very fertile if any water hit it. Perhaps Carthage would have become a society of expert irrigators.
Cartagena would likely have been the second city in their empire in any event. If they wanted any metalworking industry they would have also made Genoa, Turin, and Santander important centres, so the empire's focus would -- as you say -- have been northward.
Kester.
ninebucks
Banned
I don't have a timeline per se. But I would think that around the time that the Arabs arrived sounds about right. However, a lot of the damage was already done by the time Carthage was around.
Unfortunately, I don't think the prospect of the Carthaginians becoming master irrigators is too likely. By all accounts they tended to neglect agriculture in favour of more cerebral trades, and, rather than growing their own food, tended to import it from their neighbours. Rome, conversely, placed a great deal of emphasis on agriculture, (a trait that one could argue survives today in the former Roman Empire), viewing it as a simple, idealised form of living. For instance, Carthaginian soldiers (or, more often, mercenaries) would be paid in solid cash, whereas Roman soldiers were offered the prospect of land. As a result, Rome became a great expert in agricultural engineering. They, for instance, discovered the process of desertification in (IIRC) the C2nd CE. I doubt Carthage would discover the process that quickly, even it is, geographically, much closer to them.
I must say, I'm getting ahead of myself. I am imagining that the 'dark ages' of your scenario will be comparitively grim, especially if agriculture does not develop as fast as OTL.