A sucessful Norse colonization of "Vinland"?

TaylorS

Based on what I have read the main cause for the attempt by Lief Eriksson to start a colony in Newfoundland to fail was from his antagonizing the local Native Americans, who them attacked the settlement in revenge.

What would have happened had things gotten off the ground and a bunch of folks from Iceland (and prehaps even further afield in Norway and the Faroe Islands, hearing of the new land with much better climate than Greenland, settled there. Even a settlement of 5000 people would have been vary sustainable, but more sustainable than the one in Greenland, which would likely migrate to Vinland when the climate deteriorated.

The impact on the Native Americans would be substantial over time. The small population of the Norse settlers would introduce European diseases, but the impact would be small and slow enough not to cause the rapid depopulation like in the OTL and would allow the natives to develop some immunity. Many would also get their hands on iron tools and weapons, and horses, and maybe cattle. Once the Eastern Woodland cultures get how to smelt iron from the Norse that would likely spread to the highly developed Mississippian "Mound-Builder" culture, which at the time was in it's hey-day.

In Europe outside Norway there would not be much effect at first, the main initial impact would be from an increased supply of walrus ivory and polar bear furs. Eventually, though, by the 1200s there would be a realization of the existence of this "new world" among the emerging European intellectual elites. How this would influence the future development of Europe I am not for sure.

I expect the initial colony to expand over time, mostly from natural population increase, and so eventually there will be a small, most likely nominally Christian, Norse state in the region. what would be it's fate?
 

Gimple

I don't think Christianity would necessarily spread to the Vinlandic Norse. Very likely they would continue to raid and trade further and further south. They would eventually come into contact with the Olmec culture.
What I would find interesting in such a TL, is if the spread of iron working technology precedes the Norsemen trade explorations. While they are using steel vs Iron it would give the Olmec an advantage simply due to numbers. They weren't as fierce as the later Aztec, but would still give a small group of Norse a run for their money especially if they are using iron to deflect steel.
The Olmec empire itself was twice the size of the Aztec empire and much richer. Supposedly their pyramids were bigger too. Stories of this impressive culture and it's riches would make a great recruiting tool to bring in more Norse to Vinland to make their fortunes.
 

arctic warrior

@TaylorS:
You'd need some event in Scandinavia to make a large number of Norse travel across the North Atlantic. The word wasn't enough!

Eric the Red managed to get a group of peoples to move on from Iceland to Greenland to settle there. But they didn't have to fight to establish themselves. They managed to grow to about 5000 before perishing out of history. Christianity even settled with them building several churches, monastries and a diocese!

Greenlands just a bad place for a base from which to colonize Vinland even given the climate optimum you just don't have the numbers to seriously settle in Vinland and fight off the inhabitants. And to believe the Grenlendinge Saga it was some trade going avry on a silly issue that made for the attack on the Norse expelling them.

So: numbers and diseases! The latter preferably on a 1492+ scale!
 

Cináed

The vikings were perennially incapable of leaving their neighbours alone. It won't be long before they generate hostility from the natives.

Any Scandinavian settlement is going to come under attack from the natives very, very quickly once they realise what these 'foreigners' are like. You'd need a fairly massive Norse migration to build a settlement big enough to deflect the bows, arrows and angry warriors who will be coming its way.
 

Monty Burns

Cináed said:
The vikings were perennially incapable of leaving their neighbours alone. It won't be long before they generate hostility from the natives.

Any Scandinavian settlement is going to come under attack from the natives very, very quickly once they realise what these 'foreigners' are like. You'd need a fairly massive Norse migration to build a settlement big enough to deflect the bows, arrows and angry warriors who will be coming its way.
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That's indeed the problem.

One solution frequently stated is fur trade with Europe - but there's easier sources for that and it likely requires better naval technology of the Norse to establish secure trading links from Europe to Vinland.

Another decent idea I once read in this forum was that the introduction of christianity leads to many pagan norse to emmigrate further away from the christians and ultimately ending in Vinland.

Stronger continental powers able to defend better against Norse raids should also be helpful: if the Nordic surplus population has no chance to go to the Viking conquered lands, they'd have to look somewhere else.
 

twovultures

Donor
One possibility to consider is the Vikings stumbling on a Native war. If a feud is going on in Vinland, the Vikings might be able to ally themselves with one side, and with their support establish themselves permanently. However, this would require what can only be described as a very unusual level of cultural sensitivity and cooperation from the vikings, but I think its the best bet. If the Vikings did settle permanently, they would ultimately become a Mestizo culture. I'm skeptical of them sailing all the way down to the Olmecs before the early modern era, but their technology could diffuse to the mainland and result in Native communities using European farming techniques, crops, and technology.
 

Gimple

arctic warrior said:
Why not? It had already taken root in Greenland and a diocese erected 1121 in which year the Bishop is claimed to have visited Vinland!
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For the sake of an interesting TL for one. I would assume this thread is about ideas for creating an interesting storyline. If Christianity takes hold, the Vikings don't go rampaging through Vinland fighting Skraelings.
In OTL Christianity took hold, a of Europe has Viking blood by now, the Vikings are settling.
In OTL the vikings traded either red cloth or milk for furs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grœnlendinga_saga
There was some profit in it, but not enough to bring in a mass emigration. Without mass immigration the Vikings will get expelled. The only way to attract enough Norse to make a viable community would be to find gold. The Spanish OTL didn't find gold in North America except minor amounts in the Caribbean and Florida. They will need to get a visual on an Olmec city. Make their own city of gold stories.
 

Umbral

There are two problems to overcome if we want a successful Vinland settlement: Motivation and proximity.

Vinland was at the end of a very long supply chain where each link grew weaker. The numbers available for colonization dropped sharply from Scandinavia to Iceland and from Iceland to Greenalnd.

And while Vinland was actually known of in general among those who cared about such things in Europe, it was believed to be and island like Iceland. Possibly larger and warmer, but with hostile natives added.

It was not known to contain anything interesting that could not be obtained more easily from Northern Russia.

Note that even a minor settlement can be enough to transfer considerable skills to the natives. Agricultoral package, domesticated animals, iron working, the horse AND the stirrup -and most importanlty, seafaring skills. Which will change the picture for North America massively.

I take the notion that the Vikings were incapable of getting along with their neighbours with a pinch of salt. The Vikings were no more incapable of getting along with people than other Dark Ages peoples. They are more well known, and they had a technological advantage in their seamanship. They had the ability to strike at people on coastlines far away, who had little ability to retailate.
Getting along with the actual neighbours seem sensible enough.
 

TaylorS

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

twovultures said:
If the Vikings did settle permanently, they would ultimately become a Mestizo culture. I'm skeptical of them sailing all the way down to the Olmecs before the early modern era, but their technology could diffuse to the mainland and result in Native communities using European farming techniques, crops, and technology.
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That is an idea I've read before, actually. In one of the "What If" books in the chapter on if the Norman Conquest failed. essentially the author claims that if the Conquest never happened England would have remained more oriented toward Scandinavia, though I cannot remember the whole chain of reasoning.
 

Faeelin

Banned
TaylorS said:
The impact on the Native Americans would be substantial over time. The small population of the Norse settlers would introduce European diseases, but the impact would be small and slow enough not to cause the rapid depopulation like in the OTL and would allow the natives to develop some immunity. Many would also get their hands on iron tools and weapons, and horses, and maybe cattle. Once the Eastern Woodland cultures get how to smelt iron from the Norse that would likely spread to the highly developed Mississippian "Mound-Builder" culture, which at the time was in it's hey-day.
Click to expand...

A few thoughts here. First, will ironworking actually spread? Note that in OTL it took four hundred years for ironworking to spread from Anatolia to the British Isles.

Not terrible, right? But what about bronze working? That took significantly longer.

And diseases? Well without a settled, large population to act as a disease reservoir, it will be impossible to build up an immunity.
 

arctic warrior

TaylorS said:
That is an idea I've read before, actually. In one of the "What If" books in the chapter on if the Norman Conquest failed. essentially the author claims that if the Conquest never happened England would have remained more oriented toward Scandinavia, though I cannot remember the whole chain of reasoning.
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Maybe but remember that Edward the Confessor already had ties to Normandy and was rebuked because of his entertaining Normans at court!

Even if a Danish dynasty should gain the throne instead of William there would most probably be ties to mainland Europe. Cnut the Great was first King of England then of Denmark etc.

What would happen if Harold Hardrada should gain the throne I'm at a loss. ;)
 

twovultures

Donor
Faeelin said:
A few thoughts here. First, will ironworking actually spread? Note that in OTL it took four hundred years for ironworking to spread from Anatolia to the British Isles.
Not terrible, right? But what about bronze working? That took significantly longer.
And diseases? Well without a settled, large population to act as a disease reservoir, it will be impossible to build up an immunity.
Click to expand...

Ironworking will spread, but it will not reach the Mesoamericans before Europeans (or Asians, depending on how big the butterflies are). However, groups that come in contact with the Vinlanders will eventually pick up ironworking, so we can expect it to appear at least on the North American northeast coast, and potentially other places that have contact with those areas.

As for the large settled population, that will follow with the adoption of European crops and animals. Wheat and beef are very calorie rich, and will allow at least a few Native American communities (once again on the Northeast coast) to develop population reservoirs. Also, note that it will take a long time for the Vinlanders themselves to develop a population big enough to to sustain epidemic diseases, and therefore big enough to pass it on to the Native Americans. This gives the natives plenty of time to pick up on technology before diseases reach them.
 

chornedsnorkack

Umbral said:
It was not known to contain anything interesting that could not be obtained more easily from Northern Russia.
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Or mainland Norway. But it is much closer to Greenland.
Umbral said:
Note that even a minor settlement can be enough to transfer considerable skills to the natives. Agricultoral package, domesticated animals, iron working, the horse AND the stirrup -and most importanlty, seafaring skills. Which will change the picture for North America massively.
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In a different order. First, barley and oats - to those who already grow maize. Then, horse and cattle. Only then iron. And only after that, seafaring skills.
Umbral said:
I take the notion that the Vikings were incapable of getting along with their neighbours with a pinch of salt. The Vikings were no more incapable of getting along with people than other Dark Ages peoples. They are more well known, and they had a technological advantage in their seamanship. They had the ability to strike at people on coastlines far away, who had little ability to retailate.
Getting along with the actual neighbours seem sensible enough.
Click to expand...

The Norse of Northern Norway lived scattered in a string of small settlements - surrounded by hunter and gatherer Sami. They had to get along, and they did. I suspect that having friendly relationships and complementary economies with Beothuk hunter gatherers should be equally feasible.

As for their exploration trips, Viking fleets wandered into Mediterranean in 9th century, as well as reach Constantinople crossing European continent. Reaching Mexico, either sailing round Florida or overland to Mississippi should be feasible.
 

loudspeaker237

Banned
i hate the fact that everybody seems to write about natives being killed by colonists. in OTL it was an aweful thing to do such things and if i were some of them i would have at least tried to inslave them, not kill them, but even then i wouldnt do that. So how about lifting up on natives. it just isnt fair the way we treated them (we as in white men). I like this idea and if i were you i would try to write an awesome TL for awaiting readers :)
 

Faeelin

Banned
twovultures said:
As for the large settled population, that will follow with the adoption of European crops and animals. Wheat and beef are very calorie rich, and will allow at least a few Native American communities (once again on the Northeast coast) to develop population reservoirs. Also, note that it will take a long time for the Vinlanders themselves to develop a population big enough to to sustain epidemic diseases, and therefore big enough to pass it on to the Native Americans. This gives the natives plenty of time to pick up on technology before diseases reach them.
Click to expand...

Well, how long did it take OTL's native Americans to adopt wheat and animals other than the horse?

The real danger is that the Norse also get hit by the epidemic diseases. There's nothing magic about being white, and even in OTL North Americans were more vulnerable to smallpox than Europeans.
 

TaylorS

A thought I have had about what would encourage people to settle Vinland would be to have one of Iceland's volcanoes have a massive eruption like the one in the 1700s. It would create a bunch of desperate Icelanders and lead to cool weather that would cause crop failures in mainland Europe.

It would be interesting to see how European crops, farming technology, livestock, and metallurgy affects the Natives. Image the Mississippians of Cahokia with iron and animal-driven plows in the fertile Midwest. Control of the iron ore deposits of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the UP of Michigan would become a major area of contention.
 
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