Where in « primitive » Europe during the classic age an country with a strong influence can be appear ? For myself, l think for the Rhine. ( Sorry for my English, it’s not my maternal language. I’m French but I think is better to publish in English
A strong European Civilization like Carthage or Rome
- Thread starter saint Victorus
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You mean Western and Central Europe?Northern Europe is Scandinavia. To create a strong country, you probably need the heavy plough to be invented much earlier so that the soil of France and Germany etc could be properly utilized. Scandinavia is probably impossible.
Yeah population in modern day Germany and central Europe didn't really start to take off until the invention of the heavy plough, use of workhorses rather than oxen, and the use of three field crop rotation starting in the high middle ages. Before that the population density was too low and the land too undeveloped for big states equivalent to Rome or Han China.
So for you, which parts of Europe can have a strong civilization like the Romans
I always thought Pannonia was the ideal site for a "natural state". A nice big plain with a moderate climate and high agricultural productivity, hemmed in on all sides by mountains for protection from nomads. It's not hard to imagine a powerful Illyrian or Dacian group taking over the area, controlling the Amber Road, and establishing a kingdom able to jocky with Rome along their shared border.
Modern day Spain, France, Italy, and Greece all had the population and wealth to create large kingdoms and empires. But unless you get different agriculture, any large centralized states are probably limited to the areas far enough south that wheat and barley grow easily and well.
If you get potatoes from South America to Central or Eastern Europe early, the population would probably grow to the point that a large empire would form in either Germany or Russia/Ukraine. Or have the locals domesticate some kind of potato-equivalent. Other than that, I think you are limited to the South.
Illyria's quite mountainous, though, which would make consolidation harder.
I think the question is about which sedentary group (Illyrians or Dacians) should take over the whole of Pannonia (iirc iOTL the portion south/west of the Danube was split between those cultures, as well as the celts, while the portion beyond the Danube was the grazing lands of a sarmatian tribe).
Dacia is quite rich with resources, being both fertile and having gold mines, which could balance out the steppe nomads. These aren’t the Huns we’re talking about, the Scythians don’t have a unified king so they’re much easier to deal with. Illyria doesn’t have as many resources
Both Iberia and Gaul are good choices. With a little more unity and better tactics, they are hardly primitive.
I'm not sure if this meets the OP's intent, but I think the Mediterranean coast of Iberia is an excellent candidate for a Rome/Carthage type civilization. This part of Iberia was more urbanized than those parts further west, with their own scripts and contacts with Greek and Carthaginian trading cities in the area.
For a more central European candidates I would look at the various "princely seat" settlements in southern Germany and eastern France during the late Bronze Age. They displayed conscious urban planning and monumental temple districts that would have been at home in the Mediterranean, but which were abandoned/destroyed in the transition to the Iron Age.
For a more central European candidates I would look at the various "princely seat" settlements in southern Germany and eastern France during the late Bronze Age. They displayed conscious urban planning and monumental temple districts that would have been at home in the Mediterranean, but which were abandoned/destroyed in the transition to the Iron Age.
I can if you like make the Mediterranean coast of the Iberia a second choice if you want. Yes, I do that
The main advantage of Iberia is that Mediterranean coast of the Iberia did fall not to Italy (Rome) or Carthage until after the 1st Punic War. There is also the advantage that it can mimic them without having to develop new technology such as the heavier plough that France and Germany really need.
The disadvantage it has is that it is beyond the Greek and Phoenician colonies and thus harder to tap into their technology. It is easier to build a strong strong civilisation if you can assimilate ideas rather than invent them yourself.
Ukraine was home to some of the largest urban centers in the world during the early Bronze Age if memory serves me right. The Black Soil there could definitely serve as the foundation of a major civilization.
There were Greek and Phoenician colonies in Iberia, and the region traded with the north African cities extensively.