A Southern West

An interesting topic I came across recently was (American) Western expansion and its role in the South-North divide leading up to the Civil War. Particularly interesting was the case made that while we tend to view the (Mid)West as more Northern than Southern, such was not the case in the early period of Western expansion during the period period 1815-1830s. This was due to geography: The West needed to export crops, and there were two avenues for doing so: the South and the North. The South held the advantage during this period because of the Mississippi River trading route. The North(east) was blocked by the Appalachian mountains and the Great Lakes were not a viable trading route at the time. Southern ports such as (and especially) New Orleans were the main recipients of Western exports, and Southerners were colonising the West (though the character of the peoples who settled the West is perhaps not that important - regardless of their background, they would vote based on perceived interest. The matter hinged on getting the West to have more interests in common with one side of the Mason-Dixie line than another). And it seems the two have things in common culturally: Both are agrarian, export-based regions with experience of life on the frontier (in the 1820s, the Old Southwest still had large tracts of Native country. Contrast this to the North which generally was far more settled). The steamboat only adds to the Southern advantage... until the railroad and canal-building spree bears fruit. The railroad allows the North to start catching up, with routes opening across Pennsylvania. The South, oddly enough, does not counter the new competition (even though a railway from the South was perhaps more practical than one running across the Appalachians). Yes, there were Southern railways servicing the West. However, it was the North who gained most of the transportation market. The Erie Canal further improved communications between North and West. These economic ties allowed northern labour to co-operate with the West on cheap land grants, a key issue, and smooth over differences regarding tariffs. Thus, while the Ohio Valley continued exporting to the South, the Great Lakes and particularly the areas west of the Mississippi fell into the Northern camp (and even the Ohio River valley was soon pentrated by Northern interests). This in turn caused the South to fear domination by the North in Congress and made issues of Western state admission an issue of South versus North. Cue the 1850 crisis, Bleeding Kansas, Civil War.

The first issue to be raised is how would we arrest the alliance of North and West, and create a South-West alliance instead. The South and West can certainly have common interests - states' rights and tariffs can be turned to benefit the West as well (and would a stronger South even rely so often on states' rights?), and the Southern position on homesteading was caused in part by a fear of the expansion of free states in the West. A Southern West would allow cheap land to be more palatable to the South. I would say that creating the alliance and perceived common interests really relies on keeping the South's dominant position in the Western market. The South was not going to beat the North in industry, but railways could have been funded by outside capital. Once the South had enough railways connecting Tennessee and New Orleans with the West, any northern attempt to tap into the market would face severe competition (and still have the OTL difficulties of crossing the Appalachians). It would thus be more likely that once the South had more of an initial hold on Western railway links, it would keep them. The Great Lakes region would probably still look to the north more (you can't really replace the Erie Canal), but if the Ohio and upper Mississippi were doing business with the South they would not need to use the Great Lakes ports. Interestingly this probably means a bit weaker US since Western exports aren't directly going to the Northeast industrial centres. And that may mean less immigration, and perhaps less labour pressure to send Northeasterners west. However, we do not need to replace immigration: the West, no matter who peopled it, would still have an alliance with the South and those settlers would vote for Western interests (which would be in tandem with the South's). There may be a couple of holes that need to be patched, however, such as how the South increases railways (though some argue that it was due to a lack of vision, not capital, on the part of Southern business). As for slavery, I think that it would not really be an issue in the South-West alliance.
Without being threatened by Northern domination and "abolitionism," slavery would never be truly threatened (at least on the political front). Therefore, there would be no need to create slave states in the West.

The other issue is what happens once we have achieved a Southern West. How does further American expansion into the Mexican Cession (I doubt that this would be altogether avoided, though does a stronger South lead to more of Mexico being ceded, with all the ramiactions of such an action?) take place? Does a South-West alliance in Congress alleviate Southern fears of Northern domination, and make secession by the SOUTHERN side less likely? What happens, meanwhile, with the North-east, which is weakened industrially and being dominated by this Congressional alliance? What happens to immigration and industralisation in such a timeline where economic policy likely favors the South?

Interestingly enough, if previously I was contemplating "OTL South secedes with Midwest, what happens?" now I see that the ramifications may be more interesting. A world where the North is an annoying festering sore against American national unity, championed by the South? But I may be postulating the best-case scenario for the South, and ignoring possibilities where the changes are more subtle and we still see Southern secession. Let us discuss all the possibilities of South-West alliance, and the ways to create such an alliance.
 
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Wow well that's pretty dense but I suspect that the Southern interests would want to make the West at least nominally slave holding. While the terrain in the Northern half of the Mid_west isn't suitable for plantations I think the desire to tie in the West would make the South want to force slavery on those areas.
 
One ramification I can see for such a thing going in the South's favor would be the issue of whether to take Cuba by force and annex it into the United States. The South was frothing at the mouth at having the "Pearl of the West Indies" join the Union with its large amount of slaves, though efforts by the North and the Presidency were able to stop any such thing from occurring. However with a greater amount of political clout in Congress and the ability to apply pressure upon the Presidency whether he be Democrat or Republican, it is a distinct possibility that the South could ram forward their territorial agenda down the throat of the Northerners.
 
A big part of the eventual loss of contact was actually the later settlement of the South. At the time of the revolution, South Carolina and Georgia combined had less than 5% of America's population, and North Carolina was itself lightly populated compared with much of the north. They controlled trade for decades while river-routes dominated, because even the tiny population could still use the rivers.

What that light population could not do was afford the railroads and canals necessary to counter Northern influence, offer markets as big, or run governments with tax bases large enough to do real long-term planning.

Increase the southern population early and some of this may be changed.
 
The South had a goodly amount of Free Capital in the early 1800's, and they sennt it on a extended Canal System to link the Southern Rivers.
The canal companies went broke in the 1830's [over development and other problems] Taking most of this spare Capital with them.
They had recovered by the 1850's and were beginning to develop the Southern Railroad system. However this is to late for Your scenario.

So you need a POD that prevents the South from investing so heavy in canals, and allows this Capital to be available in the late 20's early 30's, for railroads.
 
Not the most attractive topic on the forums, but I can understand that economic patterns in antebellum America may not exactly be interesting to everyone.
I note that the thread is a discussion thread, not a timeline! That opening post was a large preface to the discussion. I feel that such a clarification is necessary since some seem to be replying to my opening post as it was a statement rather than a question in its general nature.
I feel if The CSA got Jefferson/Colorado's Gold, Hell would break loose in the North.
Would there be a CSA, however? At least anything that we would recognise as such. The Civil War, if it ever happens, would be very different. The whole of the West would fall into Southern hands, and that would have far greater ramifications than just Colorado's gold. Northern California admitted as a slave state?
Wow well that's pretty dense but I suspect that the Southern interests would want to make the West at least nominally slave holding. While the terrain in the Northern half of the Mid_west isn't suitable for plantations I think the desire to tie in the West would make the South want to force slavery on those areas.
I would tend to disagree. The expansion of slavery seems to me a defensive reaction to the growth of Northern domination. The South felt slavery and other interests were under threat from Northern legislation passed by an increasingly Northern dominated Congress. It seeked to admit more slave states into the Union because slave states would generally vote in the Southern interest (because of their common concern for keeping slavery going). Northern expansion in Congress generally came as a result of the West's expansion, though population increases caused by immigration played a part (that does nothing about the Senate, however). If the West allies with the South, however, the South is dominant (or rather, keeps on dominating and dominates Congress with a larger margin than OTL). (I am repeating this for the sake of clarity). Therefore, does it really have a reason to expand slavery? It will push slavery in regions which are suitable for a plantation economy, against the wishes of the abolitionist minority in the North (it is likely that the North will be preoccupied about tariffs, not slavery), but its legislative clout should see little problems on that front. Not to mention that the North, as a result of a (more) Southern-dominated Congress, will likely be economically weakened. One wonders if even something like the Dred Scott ruling would be as controversial in this world. If something similar to that ruling was enforced, the slave and free-state distinction would become rather meaningless (that wouldn't get rid of the North-South divide, however - economic policy was as large a sticking point).
One ramification I can see for such a thing going in the South's favor would be the issue of whether to take Cuba by force and annex it into the United States. The South was frothing at the mouth at having the "Pearl of the West Indies" join the Union with its large amount of slaves, though efforts by the North and the Presidency were able to stop any such thing from occurring. However with a greater amount of political clout in Congress and the ability to apply pressure upon the Presidency whether he be Democrat or Republican, it is a distinct possibility that the South could ram forward their territorial agenda down the throat of the Northerners.
Interesting. I am of two minds regarding American expansionism in a Southern-dominated Union. One view is broadly similar to the response I gave just above (South has no need to expand slavery). Without needing to protect the institution of slavery, odd adventures in Latin America and elsewhere might not be seen as necessary, and thus never receive Southern bankrolling. The other view is that without strong Northern opposition to this and other Manifest Destiny schemes based on them being though as attempts to expand slavery, expansionism might come back (like it did in the 1890s. Well, it would be different, but the situation was similar in that tarring expansion with the slavery brush fell out of fashion for obvious reasons).
That all mostly concerns other parts of Latin America. Without any strong Northern opposition, the US would have little reason not to annex Cuba. As you say, it is wealthy, furthers Southern domination of Congress, and right next to the South. The main question is the reaction of Spain and other (primarily Britain) to US annexation.
A big part of the eventual loss of contact was actually the later settlement of the South. At the time of the revolution, South Carolina and Georgia combined had less than 5% of America's population, and North Carolina was itself lightly populated compared with much of the north. They controlled trade for decades while river-routes dominated, because even the tiny population could still use the rivers.

What that light population could not do was afford the railroads and canals necessary to counter Northern influence, offer markets as big, or run governments with tax bases large enough to do real long-term planning.

Increase the southern population early and some of this may be changed.
I think you are extrapolating the situation in 1776 a bit too much (and even then, I note you did not include Virginia, a powerhouse at the time). Even in 1840, the population of the South was around 40%. (38%-42%, depending on your definition of the South). In 1776, only the coast was settled. Westwards expansion in the 1800-1830 period gave the South a large boost in many respects. The Cotton Kingdom started its reign during this time, and settlers flooded into the Mississippi area (the acquisition of Louisiana was a powerful factor in this event). The cotton gin allowed slavery to expand greatly, whereas in 1776 it was waning. So the South of 1776 and 1820 are not comparable.
That is the first thing that came to my mind also.
It is only meant to start up a discussion, not stand on its own as a text. So I allowed myself some rambling paragraphs.
The South had a goodly amount of Free Capital in the early 1800's, and they sennt it on a extended Canal System to link the Southern Rivers.
The canal companies went broke in the 1830's [over development and other problems] Taking most of this spare Capital with them.
They had recovered by the 1850's and were beginning to develop the Southern Railroad system. However this is to late for Your scenario.

So you need a POD that prevents the South from investing so heavy in canals, and allows this Capital to be available in the late 20's early 30's, for railroads.
Ah, yes, the sort of response I am looking for! Thank you for this information. I was thinking of Clay's American system and internal improvements, which was aimed towards helping Northern industry. Curtailing that would kill several birds with one stone (less Northern industry and rail and all the ramifications of that, less Southern capital spent on canals, etc.). We could also perhaps delay the Erie Canal? Not only would that decrease Northern penetration of the Great Lakes (and by extension, the West) but make canal-building less attractive to other investors, including southerners. Of course, what would be the negative effects for the South if it did not build as many canals? It appears as if the canals weren't the most profitable if the companies went broke, so perhaps not too many effects that run counter to our aim here.
 
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Interesting. I am of two minds regarding American expansionism in a Southern-dominated Union.
?Would a more South dominated West, make it more or less likely that whe get the CCS tier of states in the Mexican War.?
 
Settlement requires motive and opportunity

I'm having a hard time imagining the Southern planter class settling the midwest in any meaningful way. The South just didn't have the density of people with both the means and motive to uproot and move to Nebraska on a dream and a prayer.

Small yeoman farmers hailing from Pennsylvania and New England had the skill set to establish farms on the plains, raising a mix of cash crops to trade for finished goods and subsistence gardens for food. They were also facing population pressures as the arable land in the northeast was filling up fast.

The Southern planter class, simply put, weren't themselves farmers, they were investors in plantations. That style of agribusiness simply didn't have an economic model appropriate to the landscape and climate of the midwest. Slaves require year round, cradle to grave maintenance and supervision. They must be fed, housed, clothed and cared for in their infancy, their prime and their old age. A specialized class of overseers is necessary to avoid rebellions or escapes. Every day a slave is idle is lost money for a plantation owner and with fewer growing days per year in North Dakota than in Georgia, the Southern economic model quickly becomes unworkable. If the topogaphy and climate of places like Asheville, Greenville and Knoxville made plantation agriculture unfeasible, imagine how much moreso in Fargo, Denver and Cedar Rapids.

Certainly the poor whites and small farmers of the South could do this style of farming, in fact many of them already did. But given the limited opportunities for working class whites in a slave based economy, how could they gather the resources necessary for such a move? Besides, many of them were descended from Scots-Irish who had moved down along the Shenandoah from Pennsylvania in the first place, only to find themselves unable to compete as free labor against the slave economy. If they did migrate to the west, they would have neither the capital to create plantations, nor the desire to do so.

Oddly, the portion of the Southern population with a skill set most suited for the settlement of the west was the least able to do so, the slaves. They had a broad skillset, including the direct farming of the land and trades like blacksmithing, carpentry and bricklaying, though lacking knowledge of agricultural economics, finance and often simple literacy. For obvious reasons, they were not able to leave the South in large numbers to do so. Had Reconstruction provided the freed slaves with the iconic forty acres and a mule in, say, Nebraska and California, things may have gone very differently.

Might there have been (and was there) slavery on the plains? Of course it's possible a wealthy farmer might keep one farmhand or a domestic servant mostly as a status symbol, but the sort of large scale slave economy that would side with the south in the ACW seems unlikely.
 
?Would a more South dominated West, make it more or less likely that whe get the CCS tier of states in the Mexican War.?
By CCS tier of states, do you mean the OTL Cession, or further gains? Whatever it may be, that is my question as well. Certainly Texas is going to be gained. However, I think that the OTL Cession is far too juicy a spoil of war for the Americans to ignore it. And if the South is in alliance with the West, neither the South nor the West will be against expanding the domains of the West into the unsettled lands of Northern Mexico which often have Anglo colonists. Of course, if we take out the American System and somewhat retard the North's indistrial development, the 1840s may be somewhat different, in foreign policy and other things. An America that is more dependent on the Southern and Western export-based economy is going to exporting this to Europe, particularly Britain. Therefore, America is going to be more dependent on the opinions of Europe, particularly Britain. This takes us either into the direction that America needs to play foreign policy and seek trade with anti-British countries (support Russia? OTL Russo-American relations were always amiable and if I recall Russian hemp was popular in the South) or become part of the British international economic empire and play by its rules. While the North would still be there to somewhat offset this (unlike CSA victories which would likely see the Confederacy jump off a bridge when Britain says to do so) it does provide a marked change to OTL. Indeed, if we also posit that the Souuthern-dominated US is more likely to (attempt to) expand into more of Mexico and Latin America, it provides us with the unstable situation of an America that has less independent economic clout but is more willing to pick fights. Much like many say of a victorious CSA, it would lead us to an America that has a lot more in common with Latin America, particularly Brazil. Slavery, domination by slave owners who perputuate a caste-based system, agrarian export-based economy...
Ahem. That was a wild tangent. But I suppose is provides us with further foundations to answer the expansionism question. I suppose we may indeed see more expansionism, especially southward. I do wonder what the Protestant slave-o-cracy will make of the Catholics they are getting? I suppose they will have to use paternalist logic and put them above slaves but below poor whites as a sort of second underclass. But then, wouldn't they compete with slaves for simple labor? Hrrrm. That could lead to the slave owners stopping expansion in Latin America. No matter if they decide to expand or not, the changed economic situation still exists and is especially important to the Oregon question (As for Mexico, it was defeated by Southern arms, not Northern industry). I am inclined to say that Oregon doesn't really change: American settlers are still pushing West, and have Southern (and thus, the government's) backing. Both countries would still like each others' markets to be open to their commerce, even if the USA goes the anti-British route.
Interestingly, this sees to sound more similar to Decades of Darkness. I admit to not having read the work yet, however (If I recall) it does involve a "darker" America with New England (aka the North) "seceding" and all of Mexico being gained. Of course, that seems to go down the Dark American Empire route. If anything, this timeline seems to be looking like an American Brazil (or Banana Republic). And of course, the changes here are less obvious and world-changing. I suppose I should not read his work so as to not get convergent ideas (though a quick look at the thread shows that our ideas already have different paths, with his POD being in 1812 and mine in the 1820s and having subtler changes. So, perhaps that was just a superficial convergence.)
I'm having a hard time imagining the Southern planter class settling the midwest in any meaningful way. The South just didn't have the density of people with both the means and motive to uproot and move to Nebraska on a dream and a prayer.

Small yeoman farmers hailing from Pennsylvania and New England had the skill set to establish farms on the plains, raising a mix of cash crops to trade for finished goods and subsistence gardens for food. They were also facing population pressures as the arable land in the northeast was filling up fast.

The Southern planter class, simply put, weren't themselves farmers, they were investors in plantations. That style of agribusiness simply didn't have an economic model appropriate to the landscape and climate of the midwest. Slaves require year round, cradle to grave maintenance and supervision. They must be fed, housed, clothed and cared for in their infancy, their prime and their old age. A specialized class of overseers is necessary to avoid rebellions or escapes. Every day a slave is idle is lost money for a plantation owner and with fewer growing days per year in North Dakota than in Georgia, the Southern economic model quickly becomes unworkable. If the topogaphy and climate of places like Asheville, Greenville and Knoxville made plantation agriculture unfeasible, imagine how much moreso in Fargo, Denver and Cedar Rapids.

Certainly the poor whites and small farmers of the South could do this style of farming, in fact many of them already did. But given the limited opportunities for working class whites in a slave based economy, how could they gather the resources necessary for such a move? Besides, many of them were descended from Scots-Irish who had moved down along the Shenandoah from Pennsylvania in the first place, only to find themselves unable to compete as free labor against the slave economy. If they did migrate to the west, they would have neither the capital to create plantations, nor the desire to do so.

Oddly, the portion of the Southern population with a skill set most suited for the settlement of the west was the least able to do so, the slaves. They had a broad skillset, including the direct farming of the land and trades like blacksmithing, carpentry and bricklaying, though lacking knowledge of agricultural economics, finance and often simple literacy. For obvious reasons, they were not able to leave the South in large numbers to do so. Had Reconstruction provided the freed slaves with the iconic forty acres and a mule in, say, Nebraska and California, things may have gone very differently.

Might there have been (and was there) slavery on the plains? Of course it's possible a wealthy farmer might keep one farmhand or a domestic servant mostly as a status symbol, but the sort of large scale slave economy that would side with the south in the ACW seems unlikely.
I understand that the South isn't going to be having slave owners settlers filling up the West. But we are not really talking about slavery in the West, and particularly we are not not talking about the Civil War. The West could probably be filled up with the same people as OTL, though I posit that there would be considerably more of a Southern cultural element in this timeline. I would argue that it isn't the settlers who matter. People in the West will vote for Western interests, without much thought as to their background. What I am talking about is a collusion of Southern and Western interests so that they, rather than the North and West as per OTL, form a bloc in Congress that is against tariffs and with agrarian interests. Such a collusion is aschieved by having the South maintain its economic influence over the West by being the place where Western products are shipped to. This is achieved by the South investing in railroads leading West more than OTL (and also somewhat retarding Northern industrial development - less of a market for Western goods, and more importantly Northern railway companies do not have an opportunity to break the Southern monopoly and thus break into the Western market). I go into more detail in my posts above. So it is not that the West become pat of the South, rather it is that the West allies with the South. (Another tangent: The North dominated the West OTL because of its industry which had tapped into the Western market and blocked competition by tariffs. In this case, Northern industry has no protective tariffs and is blocked from the West so it cannot dominate. The South allies with the West, but unlike the OTL North cannot dominate the West in such a manner. So the West keeps a stronger regionalism. While I think it unlikely, another person could also use my scenario to engineer a Western secession).
 
C&C&Sonora
Then it is up in the air, as I said. A Southern-dominated US may have both more and less incentives to expand. I lean towards the fact that the US may be even more expansionist, and that the "Papist Problem" would be dealt with by making them cheap labor slightly above slaves. However, such competition to slave labor may be seen as more trouble than it is worth by the planter elites. Certainly, the slavery question which held back expansion for a couple of decades would not be present. Anyone willing to add to this? (If so, review my response to DuQuense in post 13).
 
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