A question about Lapland
- Thread starter Ahab
- Start date
a) is going to be very difficult. But...stranger tings have popped up when strong countries require buffer countries. Maybe a differently run WW1, and a different Versailes treaty at the end? Some kind of Læstadian Saami nationalism poppling up in connection with 1905, which goes differently (badly?) Sweden-Norway participates in WW1, and loses Lapland at the end? Or maybe some kind of negotiated end to WW2?
b) is more doable. Borders in the area were pretty diffuse, to the point where put-upon Saami had to pay taxes to three countries at the same time sometimes. You'd just need an occasion where one of the countries (Sweden or Russia) made a strong and successful push in the area, an area which for a long while was seen as marginal and uinteresting.
For Norway to get it would be a bit more difficult, and probably require Norway to be on the opposing side to Sweden and Russia in a big multination war. And that side winning.
b) is more doable. Borders in the area were pretty diffuse, to the point where put-upon Saami had to pay taxes to three countries at the same time sometimes. You'd just need an occasion where one of the countries (Sweden or Russia) made a strong and successful push in the area, an area which for a long while was seen as marginal and uinteresting.
For Norway to get it would be a bit more difficult, and probably require Norway to be on the opposing side to Sweden and Russia in a big multination war. And that side winning.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
There were some minor conflicts in the 15-1600s between Sweden, Denmark- Norway and Novgorod/ Muscowy/ Russia on taxation rights over Saami tribes. The conflicts were quite minor, and usually kind of private wars between taxation agents from the different countries, but ultimately lead to the current borders in the north. The Swedish- Norwegian border was later ratified in the Codex Lapponia, but followed previous agreements between Swedish and Danish- Norwegian tax agents.
Maybe, but...what is Lappland going to be a buffer state against? An invasion of the killer polar bears?
Actually that would be quite cool...
An independent Lapland might be doable if political developments in northern europe during and after the middle ages are rather different. For example, if William of Normandy fails to conquer England, then I suspect that the Anglo-Saxon realm will retain a northward foreign policy trajectory, which might involve establishing trading links along the Barents and White Sea coasts, and the formation of independent states there eventually.
Interesting...
If Greater Finland had been created, taking up all of Karelia, then the Saami would have had their OTL Russian and Finnish areas within Finland. As Finland and Sweden have ethnic links, an autonomous G/Finland-Sweden Lapland would be possible.
Father Christmas For President!
If Greater Finland had been created, taking up all of Karelia, then the Saami would have had their OTL Russian and Finnish areas within Finland. As Finland and Sweden have ethnic links, an autonomous G/Finland-Sweden Lapland would be possible.
Father Christmas For President!
yourworstnightmare
Banned
I just don't sea a Saami State feasible. The Saamis were fewer than the Finns, Swedes, Russians, Norwegians, and that's something of a problem.
You need a figure of unity around which people can rally. You also need that person to be loved by people of many nations which would help to generate sympathy and a positive image for your nation.
Finally you need a leader that is generous and seen as a father perhaps even a Grandfather figure.
Does Lapland possess sucha man?
a) Not going to happen.
b) Easiest way would be to not have Sweden lose Finland. Just do that and it would keep ruling all of it.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Unless by Lappland he means all Saami areas, since that would include Finnmarken and part of Kola too.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
An the tax collectors could easily gather a superior army of thugs to defeat any Saami resistance.
Looking in...
Still think a Greater Finland (includes Kola) or a Greater Sweden, are your best options. Sweden under the Bernadottes has controlled Norway - if the Vasas had held onto Finland and Kola, they could have established a Swedish Federation of autonomous states (e.g. Norway, Sweden, Lapland, Finnmark, Karelia). That would have been strong enough to check the Tsars and might have survived even the Soviets.
As for a respected international figure - Santa Claus or Mannerheim?
Still think a Greater Finland (includes Kola) or a Greater Sweden, are your best options. Sweden under the Bernadottes has controlled Norway - if the Vasas had held onto Finland and Kola, they could have established a Swedish Federation of autonomous states (e.g. Norway, Sweden, Lapland, Finnmark, Karelia). That would have been strong enough to check the Tsars and might have survived even the Soviets.
As for a respected international figure - Santa Claus or Mannerheim?
Still think a Greater Finland (includes Kola) or a Greater Sweden, are your best options. Sweden under the Bernadottes has controlled Norway - if the Vasas had held onto Finland and Kola, they could have established a Swedish Federation of autonomous states (e.g. Norway, Sweden, Lapland, Finnmark, Karelia). That would have been strong enough to check the Tsars and might have survived even the Soviets.
As for a respected international figure - Santa Claus or Mannerheim?
If Sweden kept Finland it wouldn't have gotten Norway, at least not as in OTL. Norway was compensation for the loss of Finland.
Father Christmas/Santa Claus would be the best bet for a good leader for Lapland as has been mentioned. If anyone fights Lapland then they will fight elves and little children.
Sweden could have had all the Sami territories, if Charles XII had made a peace in 1719 with Russia, where Sweden cedes the Baltic provinces, but is compensated in two ways. The first by getting the Russian Karelia and Kola. The second by having Russian military and diplomatic support for conquering Norway from Denmark. There were negociations in this direction in 1718, but the king's death ended that.
Whether the Swedes actually could have conquered Norway in 1719 I have not heard any estimate of, but with Russian support it would at least have been easier than whatever the Swedes had historically planned.
Whether the Swedes actually could have conquered Norway in 1719 I have not heard any estimate of, but with Russian support it would at least have been easier than whatever the Swedes had historically planned.