A New Portugal (an alternate Ksar-el-Kebir)

[Gonzaga]

I like your ideas very much.

Where in OTL the early 17th century for Portugal was mostly (if not a decline) a series of missed opportunities thanks to the Spanish personal union, this new and vigorous ruler looks to be taking them in a more aggressive direction.

The downside for Portugal is that Brazil will probably be smaller, as Philip III's boot will be on the neck of whoever draws up the revised Torsedillas.

Well, OTL there were many ideas of how should be the Brazilian border, since no one was very secure of how Tordesillas should be interpretated. Surely, now there will be an agreement much more in favour of Spain. Here there the ideas used through the 16th and 17th of how Tordesillas Line should be (repair in the Portuguese trying to curve the line):

 

[Gonzaga]

Also, has anyone an idea of how to make a new flag combining this...

 

[Gonzaga]

...and this? I don't know how were the rules for flags in the 16th century.

 

[Thande]

...and this? I don't know how were the rules for flags in the 16th century.

Maybe just try quartering them?

 

[Gonzaga]

I've made a rough draft, inspired by the Vatican flag, but I don't know if it works though...

 

[Thande]

I've made a rough draft, inspired by the Vatican flag, but I don't know if it works though...

That reminds me of the OTL proposal for the Union Jack (in 1606) that was favoured by the commission that drew it up, but was rejected in favour of the precursor of the OTL version. So it's about right for the time in terms of context.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

The downside for Portugal is that Brazil will probably be smaller, as Philip III's boot will be on the neck of whoever draws up the revised Torsedillas.

The Tordesillas Treaty was only repealed in 1750 in OTL by the Treaty of Madrid; probably it can be settled as late as in OTL here.

 

[Gonzaga]

The Tordesillas Treaty was only repealed in 1750 in OTL by the Treaty of Madrid; probably it can be settled as late as in OTL here.

Yes, but there were many versions of Tordesillas, and all of them needed to deal with the difficulties of calculating the right longitude. I was thinking about Philip III forgetting Tordesillas, and finally settling a border based on geography (rivers and mounts) rather than an imaginary line. But he would make sure that the Portuguese would have no right to the Amazon and the Plata. Also, he would claim Portuguese territories in Indonesia, and I'm still not sure if I should try a Spanish Macau...

BTW, here a map of Northern Italy after the Treaty of Rome:

 

[Tocomocho]

What about a return of the old Portuguese square in which the CoA was based?

 

[Gonzaga]

What about a return of the old Portuguese square in which the CoA was based?

It's nice! But I'm not sure if a return to the old flag would be likely. The Portuguese square flag was changed by Manuel I, from who Rainuncio descends from, and I don't know if he would like to modify the flag made by the king from who his claim is originary...

Although, the flag you made is very nice, I might find a reason to have him using it!

 

[Archangel]

Gonzaga, the chapter 21 is excellent, it follows an unexpected path.
I believe that the Tordesillas treaty would stay or if revised, it may favour more the Spanish in the coast, but in the interior, it's a different story.
Let's just say there may be a bigger temptation to wander by accident and ending up claiming more territory in the interior, _by accident, of course_.

 

[Gonzaga]

Gonzaga, the chapter 21 is excellent, it follows an unexpected path.
I believe that the Tordesillas treaty would stay or if revised, it may favour more the Spanish in the coast, but in the interior, it's a different story.
Let's just say there may be a bigger temptation to wander by accident and ending up claiming more territory in the interior, _by accident, of course_.

And what didn't the Portuguese have discovered in Brazil by accident in OTL?

Rainuncio I will be really an interesting king. OTL, as Duke of Parma, he was quite active, developedthe University of Parma, improved the city walls, gave to his territory a modern legislation with a Constitution, incentived the production of silk, improved the agricultural lands... Also, he loved arts and culture, and made Parma an important center of theater, almost in the same level as Paris or London. If he could do it with a tiny territory as Parma, imagine what could he do in Lisbon...

But he also was an Renascentist Italian man in the worse sense of it too. He loved charlatans and astrologists, and was very suspicious of the other nobles. OTL he killed 100 people, the majority of them with noble blood, in Parma and Piacenza, because he believed they were plotting against him. So, it's better the Portuguese nobles be careful...

 

[Thande]

On the other hand, if Spain does enforce a smaller Portuguese claim in South America, then Portugal colonial ambitions might focus on other areas instead, like Goa and Luanda, which is also interesting.

 

[Archangel]

And what didn't the Portuguese have discovered in Brazil by accident in OTL?

Rainuncio I will be really an interesting king. OTL, as Duke of Parma, he was quite active, developedthe University of Parma, improved the city walls, gave to his territory a modern legislation with a Constitution, incentived the production of silk, improved the agricultural lands... Also, he loved arts and culture, and made Parma an important center of theater, almost in the same level as Paris or London. If he could do it with a tiny territory as Parma, imagine what could he do in Lisbon...

Maybe he can built new Universities and expand the one in Coimbra.
That would help a lot in the future.
I hope he won't persecute the Portuguese Jews. Besides the cruelty it was in OTL, they were very loyal citizens, who clung to the Portuguese language for a long time, and also much of the cultural and scientific elite.

On the other hand, if Spain does enforce a smaller Portuguese claim in South America, then Portugal colonial ambitions might focus on other areas instead, like Goa and Luanda, which is also interesting.

It could be interesting. In that situation, the explorations in the Australian coast might arise more interest to the Portuguese crown and the more pleasant South African climate (similar to Portugal's climate) might tempt Portugal to settle the coast between Angola and Mozambique.
Another potential result would be a greater investment in keeping the western Indian coast and Ceylon.

 

[Gonzaga]

Maybe he can built new Universities and expand the one in Coimbra.
That would help a lot in the future.
I hope he won't persecute the Portuguese Jews. Besides the cruelty it was in OTL, they were very loyal citizens, who clung to the Portuguese language for a long time, and also much of the cultural and scientific elite.

Well, I don't want to give you spoilers, but think about it: the greatest ally of Rainuncio in Portugal is Gramaxo, who is a marrano and already started some tolerant policies. More details in the next installment, where I want to explain the Portuguese policies in relation to the Jews.

On the other hand, if Spain does enforce a smaller Portuguese claim in South America, then Portugal colonial ambitions might focus on other areas instead, like Goa and Luanda, which is also interesting.

It could be interesting. In that situation, the explorations in the Australian coast might arise more interest to the Portuguese crown and the more pleasant South African climate (similar to Portugal's climate) might tempt Portugal to settle the coast between Angola and Mozambique.
Another potential result would be a greater investment in keeping the western Indian coast and Ceylon.

Well, I'll just give you a clue. You might expect some action in the new colony of "Terra da Boa Esperança" (Good Hope Land).

 

[Sgt Detritus]

Is Dom Manuel still alive and if so is there any residual Manuelist sympathies anywhere in Portugal??

 

[Gonzaga]

Is Dom Manuel still alive and if so is there any residual Manuelist sympathies anywhere in Portugal??

For now, Manuel and Lancaster are still alive, but in prison. There are still sympathizers of both, but their numbers are not enough to real challenge Farnese. The Portuguese are tired of war, and will let the new king work in peace. Of course, Rainuncio doesn't trust them, and he probably will not let alive for a long time two men who could challenge him...

 

[Sgt Detritus]

For now, Manuel and Lancaster are still alive, but in prison. There are still sympathizers of both, but their numbers are not enough to real challenge Farnese. The Portuguese are tired of war, and will let the new king work in peace. Of course, Rainuncio doesn't trust them, and he probably will not let alive for a long time two men who could challenge him...

Bearing in mind what you said about Rainuncio in post #92 what would he do with Dom Manuel's children???

If he does have Manuel and Lancaster executed two other questions arise:

1. How will this affect his popularity in Portugal
2. Will Lancaster's English relatives be annoyed??

 

[Gonzaga]

Bearing in mind what you said about Rainuncio in post #92 what would he do with Dom Manuel's children???

Dom Manuel, as his father, was not married, so his possible children are all bastards too, as him. OTL he only married in 1599, and his children were all born after that. ITTL, as he was busy trying to secure his throne, he doesn't have any legitimate children either. As he was born in 1568, all his possible bastards would be too young (and too easy to get rid of if needed).

If he does have Manuel and Lancaster executed two other questions arise:

1. How will this affect his popularity in Portugal
2. Will Lancaster's English relatives be annoyed??

1) He is the legitimate king, approved by the courts and indicated by the Pope. He doesn't need to be popular. If he decides to kill them, propaganda like "our legitimate king only decided to make justice against the usurpers" can be used.

2) I believe the English Lancasters wouldn't care for their Portuguese counterparts. After all, the Portuguese Lancaster family aren't really Lancaster. Actually I have no idea why John II gave to his bastard son the surname Lancaster, I believe it was due to his ancestor Philipa of Lancaster.

 

[Archangel]

2) I believe the English Lancasters wouldn't care for their Portuguese counterparts. After all, the Portuguese Lancaster family aren't really Lancaster. Actually I have no idea why John II gave to his bastard son the surname Lancaster, I believe it was due to his ancestor Philipa of Lancaster.

They can be called a distant illegitimate cadet branch of the Lancaster, and I also believe it was due to his ancestor Philippa of Lancaster. It appears that in the old days, some influential families liked to name cadet branches with the (different) surnames of some distinguished ancestor. Like the Dukes of Cadaval being Álvares Pereira (instead of Braganza), for example.